File deleuze-guattari/deleuze-guattari.0501, message 63


From: "Chapman" <chapman0603-AT-rogers.com>
To: <deleuze-guattari-driftline.org-AT-lists.driftline.org>
Subject: RE: [D-G] mona has
Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2005 18:24:26 -0500


Its been a while since I've thought of the Lacanian pancake:
real/symbol/imaginary. My short answer is that you're right on the money
when you say that they see Lacan's subject as the entire sructure. D&G do
away with the symbolic, and hence the objectism a culture confers.

Two essays are bubbling, the one on structuralism where Deleuze compares
Artaud to Carrol, finding L.Carrol to be a fake schizophrene because he
'smells of one who is well fed' because he triangulates his silly
Jabberwocky madness through his effete sensibility, and finds in Artaud, as
we well know, the figure of the man who leaves the synthesis of the actual
and the possible for the real and the virtual. I'm also now thinking of
'Several Regimes of Signs' when they say that language, which is the
representation of our cultural symbolic par excellence, 'is neither
informational nor communicational'.  I take this statement to be their
greatest attack on the Lacanian narrative of development, making speaking of
whole positions and objects before and after subjectification moot. They are
at pains to objectivize the imaginary, to use psychoanalytic speak, or as
they say; "There is only desire and the social, and nothing else." (AntiO
29)

I think Sylvie may be more right abt Deleuze's being in/out of madness than
I care to believe. If I had my reading I would see us recognize good/bad
forms of schizophrenia, and accept it as the historically specific
nonce-word it is.

James, if you can shed more light on how they configure Lacan I'ld be quite
happy to hear your thoughts. Any thoughts b/c it's a topic I've not seen
discussed at all. I see that you use economic terms, forms of circulation,
to understand them. D&G talk about an a-parallel becoming opposed to the
usual psychoanalytic figure of the caesurae or chiasmus. This difference is
essential I think because it tells us that they really have no time for
classic and clinically administered psychoanalytic interpretations of the
'break' - reality continues to flow past the mediation of meaning.

Chris



-----Original Message-----
From: deleuze-guattari-driftline.org-bounces-AT-lists.driftline.org
[mailto:deleuze-guattari-driftline.org-bounces-AT-lists.driftline.org]On
Behalf Of James Depew
Sent: Wednesday, January 19, 2005 5:25 PM
To: deleuze-guattari-driftline.org-AT-lists.driftline.org
Subject: Re: [D-G] mona has


Ah, Toronto.  I left there six months ago for France.  Glad to hear
that it is colder there than here. :)

Speaking of symbolic, does anyone have a grasp on the role of the
symbolic in Deleuze's (post)structuralism?  In particular, the essay
"How do we recognize structuralism?" places particular emphasis on the
relationship between singularities and symbolic elements.  At first
glance the formula seems Lacanian, where the symbolic determines the
actualisation of the subject (or pre-individual singularity) as it is
dispersed and incarnated.  On the other hand, his emphasis on the
reciprocal relations that constitute these determinations, that is
their differential, seems to position the symbolic at his
subrepresentative level.  The views of the "intersubjective"
determinations of the symbolic is, at least on the surface, not the
same as Lacan's and this may stem from his unique understanding of
structure.  Lacan's supernumerary object is for Deleuze the entire
problematic structure, and is void (degree 0).

The subject, as far as it goes, is seen as the entire structure.  But
how, empirically, can we understand the symbol in this context?

Forgive me if this is a rude reconstruction at best.


On Wed, 19 Jan 2005 11:37:04 -0500, Chapman <chapman0603-AT-rogers.com> wrote:
> sorry, Toronto.
> I'm from Vancouver, BC.
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: deleuze-guattari-driftline.org-bounces-AT-lists.driftline.org
> [mailto:deleuze-guattari-driftline.org-bounces-AT-lists.driftline.org]On
> Behalf Of Sylvie Ruelle
> Sent: Wednesday, January 19, 2005 11:29 AM
> To: deleuze-guattari-driftline.org-AT-lists.driftline.org
> Subject: Re: [D-G] mona has
>
> where is TO?
> i am in the northern california redwoods along the nietszchean coastline
>
> On Jan 19, 2005, at 7:35 AM, Chapman wrote:
>
> > It's snowing in TO.
> >
> > One has to wonder quite what it is you're doing at 7am conjugating
> > Deleuze
> > against Leroi Gourhan and 'Quest for Fire.'
> >
> > Let's move sideways for a moment. Gourhan looked at the Lascaux cave
> > paintings and found a moment between representations of ox and their
> > symbolic convention. He called this moment 'synthetic- abstraction' or
> > something like... This halfway between direct representation and
> > symbol is
> > an interesting point of comparison with the notion of asignification I
> > think.
> >
> > Maybe you've read 'Clan of the Cave Bear' by Jean M. Auel? 'Clan' is
> > neet
> > because it has a moment where counting past, I think it's 4, is a mark
> > of
> > genius. Chagrin is much had by the men who see the novel's heroine do
> > it. (I
> > think it's because she was worried abt. prehistoric income tax -- you
> > can
> > still see women worrying about their cave-bears, roaming about Surrey,
> > BC.
> > But I digress.)
> >
> > I'll offer my humongous and deeply weighted pearl of interpretive
> > wisdom,
> > dripping as it is with gravitas: Deleuze knew the difference between
> > disappointment and depression. The idea of nobility Foucault
> > typologizes is
> > depressing, I think you are noting this. It misses Deleuze's
> > distinction
> > between modern nobility, those like K. and other anti- bureaucratic
> > bureaucrats, and those who inherit depression as if it were nobility.
> >
> > C, the ether-bunny.
> >
> > gotta do some work now.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: deleuze-guattari-driftline.org-bounces-AT-lists.driftline.org
> > [mailto:deleuze-guattari-driftline.org-bounces-AT-lists.driftline.org]On
> > Behalf Of Sylvie Ruelle
> > Sent: Wednesday, January 19, 2005 9:59 AM
> > To: deleuze-guattari-driftline.org-AT-lists.driftline.org
> > Subject: Re: [D-G] mona has
> >
> >
> > Well, I mean your last sentence, yes (19th).  But Deleuze's research
> > was not noble in another sense too.  As far as theories stand, so far i
> > cannot say if he betrayed that nobility lifestyle or was even capable
> > of it  (this might not be possible if we are what we live???).  He was
> > a noble schizo then if he could?  With Foucault i have found much on
> > this in his book "society must be defended".  Foucault general
> > historical style carries this idea of nobility of landownership, the
> > upper class, etc.  And, we should be careful here cause this can
> > "logisize" (reason away) into fascism!  Anyways,  I was looking for
> > refinement of the ideas of savages, barbarians, and civilized man
> > distinctions.  Then I went to the film "Quest for Fire"  (even the
> > "2001", "2010" films), for a picture of things and some back up before
> > reading Leroi Gourant (spelling?) and how man stood up for the first
> > times (because there were several that did).  So when I say Deleuze was
> > Noble (yes was) I mean someone with a certain degree of comfortability
> > (for most of his life), someone with a certain security and stability.
> > A schizophrenic (clinical) goes all over the place in thought.  Ideas
> > of reference predominate.  There is nothing stable and secure about the
> > Schizophrenic.  It is a life filled with depression, a liquid life of
> > things melting into each other.  A rhizome life.  This is a quality (?)
> > Deleuze had, it is clear in his works.  SO he is also noble in the
> > artistic sense.  BECAUSE, he could do both.  A double articulation, a
> > schizo and a schizophrenic but noble in both senses.  Something very
> > difficult to achieve.
> >
> > I hope this makes sense.  I do have weak spots in my readings.  It's
> > all a life's worth process and yet I have only just begun.
> > On Jan 19, 2005, at 6:31 AM, Chapman wrote:
> >
> >> K. is woken up by the peasants and landlord, they don't believe he's a
> >> land-surveyor at all. They have to ring central office. Funny stuff,
> >> eh? The
> >> next morning he re-notices something,
> >>
> >> "But it was a picture after all, as now appeared, the bust portrait of
> >> a man
> >> about fifty. His head was sunk so low upon his breast that his eyes
> >> were
> >> scarcely visible, and the weight of the high, heavy forehead and the
> >> strong
> >> hooked nose seemed to have borne the head down. Because of this pose
> >> the
> >> man's full beard was pressed in at the chin and spread out farther
> >> down. His
> >> left hand was buried in his luxuriant hair, but seemed incapable of
> >> supporting the head." (The Castle)
> >>
> >> K. thinks it's the Count at first but it turns out to be, according to
> >> the
> >> landlord who is newly awed by K., to be another minor Castellan.
> >>
> >> I've never been perfectly certain, Sylvie, if Deleuze and Foucault
> >> were ever
> >> on the same page when it comes to power and nobility. Isn't K. a
> >> better
> >> 'schizo' than the head-down 'noble' he sees? To chunner the old saw,
> >> would
> >> you say that Foucault has a discourse about nobility but misses what
> >> in
> >> effect is most noble in man. Perhaps? Maybe you have a different view?
> >> I
> >> like the idea of the 'noble schizo' but in light of Kafka we see
> >> nobility
> >> migrated into modern bureaucracy. I'm a poor reader of Foucault. Does
> >> he
> >> have anything to say abt. modern nobility or is itjust an empowered
> >> refinement of 19C lines of, presumably colonial, inheritance?
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Chris.
> >>
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: deleuze-guattari-driftline.org-bounces-AT-lists.driftline.org
> >> [mailto:deleuze-guattari-driftline.org-bounces-AT-lists.driftline.org]On
> >> Behalf Of Sylvie Ruelle
> >> Sent: Wednesday, January 19, 2005 7:23 AM
> >> To: deleuze-guattari-driftline.org-AT-lists.driftline.org
> >> Subject: Re: [D-G] mona has
> >>
> >>
> >> well, there is the noble gases relating to the clinamen and deleuze's
> >> death as speeding it all up "beaking through to the other side"
> >> but what i mean is that he is a sort of noble, a noble lifestyle in a
> >> foucauldean sense
> >> you know, he has land, plenty of time for recreation, money, servants
> >> if he wishes, etc.
> >> this gives him time for things the average cannot do. like his
> >> research
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> On Jan 19, 2005, at 3:46 AM, James Depew wrote:
> >>
> >>> Don't D&G make a distinction between schizo and schizophrenic?
> >>> Schizo
> >>> as choice and schizophenic as chosen, or that sort of thing?
> >>>
> >>> Chapman - that quote doesn't sound so ambivalent.  Yes capitalism is
> >>> constructed on decoded flows that constitute its profound tendency or
> >>> its absolute limit, and there is real potential there, but capitalism
> >>> is constantly counteracting that tendency. "Capitalism has reawakened
> >>> the Urstaat, and given it new strength."
> >>>
> >>> Sylvie - This idea of Deleuze as noble is interesting.  Can you say
> >>> more?
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> On Wed, 19 Jan 2005 09:14:04 +0000, stuart tait <enso-AT-postmark.net>
> >>> wrote:
> >>>> That's great, I like a mixture of both personally. I admit to having
> >>>> trouble keeping up with some of these email list because i'm too
> >>>> busy
> >>>> with work these days to do much reading and the brain tends to move
> >>>> into slower gears. I am clearly not an expert on D&G and have never
> >>>> successfully managed to read a whole one of their books
> >>>> (collaborative
> >>>> or solo) despite repeated attempts, and attempts to read
> >>>> 'introductions to' D&G. This said, I got the impression they were
> >>>> talking about a couple of different things when they talked about
> >>>> schizophrenia; the clinical 'condition' recognised by psychiatrists
> >>>> in
> >>>> the west/north, and a state of being in the world as a reaction to
> >>>> capitalism. The former being a state of paranoia exacerbated by
> >>>> modern
> >>>> consumer society where there really are voices telling you to buy,
> >>>> sell, consume, destroy, cleanse, etc being blasted at you from
> >>>> walls,
> >>>> TVs, radios, billboards, etc, where the message is constantly YOU
> >>>> ARE
> >>>> KING IT'S YOUR CHOICE, etc, you are literally being consumed by the
> >>>> thing you try to consume. The capitalist society is designed to put
> >>>> people on that edge of ontological insecurity where they are
> >>>> continuously taking their cues from external messengers in an
> >>>> attempt
> >>>> to simply be. Whoa, that got away from me there.
> >>>>
> >>>> Then D&G seem to be suggesting that the way to deal with that
> >>>> society
> >>>> is to take control of that process of becoming schizophrenic in
> >>>> order
> >>>> to be able to best deal with, analyse, and subvert that society
> >>>> without becoming a victim to it. If the society is asking you to
> >>>> become animal, and to live as a happiness machine, entirely focussed
> >>>> on feeding your desires, it is important to understand that process
> >>>> of
> >>>> becoming animal, what it is to be schizophrenic, to become an
> >>>> homogenous body without organs, etc.
> >>>>
> >>>> Not sure if i've missed the point of what they were saying, but it
> >>>> seems like a good plan to me anyway.
> >>>>
> >>>> stuart tait
> >>>> enso-AT-postmark.net
> >>>>
> >>>> James Depew wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>> I am not sure that understanding is the goal.  Or that there is a
> >>>>> goal
> >>>>> at all, for that matter.  Deleuze and Guattari's background led
> >>>>> them
> >>>>> to *express* something in a particular form.  It seems to me that
> >>>>> they
> >>>>> tried their best to show how much the form can vary, from artists
> >>>>> to
> >>>>> scientists to perverts and philosophers.  Life is there, they all
> >>>>> say,
> >>>>> how do we find it?  A field of forces that takes on unlimited
> >>>>> forms.
> >>>>> Absolutely, the writing is extremely difficult.  But the
> >>>>> possibility
> >>>>> of connection is there.  Once you start, you can't stop.  Or, more
> >>>>> accurately, you have always been doing it.  I don't know, however,
> >>>>> if
> >>>>> conversing about it can work.  You express yourself, I express
> >>>>> myself.
> >>>>>  And maybe this is your point.  In order to avoid a kind of
> >>>>> confusion
> >>>>> over what is being expressed, one has to take the time to attend,
> >>>>> intensely, to what is being expressed.  And more than that, why it
> >>>>> is
> >>>>> being expressed, and how...
> >>>>> That means investing alot of time and energy, just like reading
> >>>>> D&G.
> >>>>> Except, are we really going to do that for each other and for
> >>>>> ourselves.  Are we really going to take that much time to make
> >>>>> sense
> >>>>> of what appears to be "the same old string of semicoherent
> >>>>> slippages"?
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> On Tue, 18 Jan 2005 21:47:16 +0200, Dr. Harald Wenk <hwenk-AT-web.de>
> >>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>> Hello,
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> in my experience, reading Deleuze and Gusattari is more than hard,
> >>>>>> because the needed backround is vast.
> >>>>>> To be honest, such as you are writing in this group, I doubt
> >>>>>> that there is a lot of real understanding - which in my eyes is
> >>>>>> more due
> >>>>>> to the unneceassarily complicated presentation of D&G, which, as
> >>>>>> it
> >>>>>> is
> >>>>>> tested by its seminars,
> >>>>>> Deleuze could do much better, clearer and understandable.
> >>>>>> The main point is in create a very complicated new code, or a lot
> >>>>>> of
> >>>>>> concepts,
> >>>>>> which are in no obvious relations with the other, also very
> >>>>>> complicated
> >>>> and
> >>>>>> elaborated concepts in Philosophy - if you are so kind to have a
> >>>>>> look at
> >>>>>> Husserl
> >>>>>> or Heidegger or original Kasnt or Hegel oe Schelling - even
> >>>>>> Spinoza
> >>>>>> is
> >>>>>> original
> >>>>>> not easy to grasp, what had led to a lot of misinterpretations.
> >>>>>> Now, one can ask, is it worthwhile?
> >>>>>> It would be concerning the schizophrenics.
> >>>>>> Physics, as you know, has really become great, as it left with
> >>>>>> Galilieo
> >>>> and
> >>>>>> Newton everyday experience - which has been code in arestotelian
> >>>>>> physics.
> >>>>>> The first law of Newton, that a moving body stays moving in a
> >>>>>> straight
> >>>> line
> >>>>>> with unaltered velocity is noot everdy, this is Aristotle, where
> >>>>>> is
> >>>>>> to be
> >>>>>> a mover for keeping the movement, otherwiese it will stop sooner
> >>>>>> (mostly)
> >>>>>> or later.
> >>>>>> Now Quantum Physics and the the theory of relativity are based on
> >>>>>> experiments and mathematical theories, which are both far away
> >>>>>> from
> >>>> everday
> >>>>>> experience (the Michelson Morley experiment is not everday,
> >>>>>> similar
> >>>>>> with
> >>>>>> Plancks thermodynamical considerations of the radiation of black
> >>>>>> bodies
> >>>>>> leading to his quantum hypothsis).
> >>>>>> This had led to the for yoe all well known state, that modern
> >>>>>> physics
> >>>>>> is not understable for non specialist - or did anyone not studied
> >>>>>> in
> >>>>>> physics
> >>>>>> or mathematics really understand the popular writings of Hawking
> >>>>>> for
> >>>>>> example - and that is not
> >>>>>> in first regard due to Hawking?
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> But, to come back to D&G, in the theories of mind and thinking
> >>>>>> especially philosophers are not to bring about not to
> >>>>>> start from everday thinking - what do I say - speaking or writing
> >>>>>> behaviour of normal people - as for example Heidegger in zthe
> >>>>>> preface of
> >>>>>> "Time and Being".
> >>>>>> This reminds strongly on Hegels "The way to truth is not to go in
> >>>>>> housegoat".
> >>>>>>  From the viewpoint of exploring the human mind it would be of
> >>>>>> much interest to give sophisticated interpretaion of schizophrenic
> >>>>>> experiences.
> >>>>>> As you all know,
> >>>>>>   Freud has elaborated his theories mainly the experience with
> >>>>>> neurotics
> >>>>>> (with an overrepresentation of "hysteric" women).
> >>>>>> His tackling of psychosis canot be seriously be spoken of as
> >>>>>> satisfying.
> >>>>>> This one of the starting points of D&G in "Anti-Oedipus".
> >>>>>> This book is, as the title and the interviews around show,
> >>>>>> more of critical value.
> >>>>>> I think, there a few people who have read this book, who didn't
> >>>>>> ask
> >>>>>> themselves -
> >>>>>> as a question of character more or less in despair - what the hell
> >>>>>> a "machine of desire" should be.
> >>>>>> This a main thing. If you mention to a professional philosopher or
> >>>>>> psychatrist
> >>>>>> the name of D&G t
> >>>>>> they will mostly show, that they didn't read or understand it.
> >>>>>> So what should a poor psychotic patient do with this?.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> And that doesen't work.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Things in this area are complicated enough and the tendency to
> >>>>>> bring it back to normal live - "This illnes doesen't really exist"
> >>>>>> -
> >>>>>> "Ok, sometimes they dont't think at all,
> >>>>>>   sometimes they cannot controll their thoughts,
> >>>>>> sometimes they cannot stop thinking anyway - but do not we all
> >>>>>> have
> >>>>>> some times, where we have such experiences - so, it is quite
> >>>>>> normal,
> >>>>>> only the frequency
> >>>>>> is a little bit unusuall."
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> D&G broke down almost every bridge to the
> >>>>>> rest of scientific discours and that in  very
> >>>>>> hard to understand way - affording a lot of
> >>>>>> non standard background -
> >>>>>> so that there is no real influence and
> >>>>>> working further on their grounds.
> >>>>>> But the theme of schizophrenia or psychosis
> >>>>>> or non everday experience in the human mind
> >>>>>> as a field of rersearch for philosophy or
> >>>>>> new original psychology is almost blocked by them.
> >>>>>> This is not more than regrettable, this is a catastrophe.
> >>>>>> To speak as a chess player, they have made the worst out of
> >>>>>> this variant of thinking and publishing.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> To calm a little bit down. In "Chaosmose" of Guattari you can
> >>>>>> find,
> >>>>>> if
> >>>> you
> >>>>>> are used
> >>>>>> to the slang, a more understable presentation.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Greetings
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Am Tue, 18 Jan 2005 07:30:25 +0000 (GMT) schrieb
> >>>>>> verlainelefou-AT-yahoo.com
> >>>>>> <verlainelefou-AT-yahoo.com>:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Dearest Forest in the east is the priestof repression sounds like
> >>>>>>> she
> >>>>>>> got yer number and its like finding the
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> voice in deleuze sans guattari c'est n'est pas possible.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Its all a creation and a becomings.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Dada
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> So this is the second deleuze-guattari list that I have joined
> >>>>>>> just
> >>>>>>> intime to see it fall apart?  Not enough for a pattern...not yet
> >>>>>>> atleast.  Does anyone have a point?  I have had poems sent to my
> >>>>>>> inbox,which are interesting and could stimulate discussion; I
> >>>>>>> have
> >>>>>>> had
> >>>>>>> someincoherent free-association pass my way, which also could
> >>>>>>> beinteresting; besides that, mostly banter, oh, and someone
> >>>>>>> asking
> >>>>>>> foretexts.  Do I have this straight?  People are criticizing
> >>>>>>> someone
> >>>>>>> forasking for texts?  Under the pretext that it is some sort
> >>>>>>> ofhierarchically driven authority loving captialist request?
> >>>>>>> What????
> >>>>>>> Am I missing something?  (quite possible since I have only
> >>>>>>> justarrived)
> >>>>>>> Is it: promote creative conceptualisation but let's not readthe
> >>>>>>> books
> >>>>>>> that inspired that idea because they have come to representthe
> >>>>>>> functioning of an overcoding regime?  Those of you
> >>>>>>> criticizing:you
> >>>>>>> have
> >>>>>>> read Deleuze and Guattari, right?  Or did the ideas manifestin
> >>>>>>> your
> >>>> head
> >>>>>>> spontaneously?Now that would be
> >>>>>>>  intersting...foris
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> all  my words are on parole
> >>>>>>> http://fictionsofdeleuzeandguattari.blogspot.com/
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> ---------------------------------
> >>>>>>>  ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger - all new features - even more fun!
> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>>>>> List address: deleuze-guattari-AT-driftline.org
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> >>>>>>
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> >>> driftline.org
> >>>
> >>>
> >> Ms. Sylvie Ruelle
> >> http://home.earthlink.net/~sylvieruelle
> >> rw_artette_lc-AT-yahoo.com
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> List address: deleuze-guattari-AT-driftline.org
> >> Admin interface:
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> >>
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> >>
> >>
> > Ms. Sylvie Ruelle
> > http://home.earthlink.net/~sylvieruelle
> > rw_artette_lc-AT-yahoo.com
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > List address: deleuze-guattari-AT-driftline.org
> > Admin interface:
> > http://lists.driftline.org/listinfo.cgi/deleuze-guattari-driftline.org
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > List address: deleuze-guattari-AT-driftline.org
> > Admin interface:
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> >
> >
> Ms. Sylvie Ruelle
> http://home.earthlink.net/~sylvieruelle
> rw_artette_lc-AT-yahoo.com
>
> _______________________________________________
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