From: Sylvie Ruelle <sylvieruelle-AT-earthlink.net> Subject: Re: [D-G] "Rousseauistic"? Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2005 12:33:50 -0800 To: deleuze-guattari-driftline.org-AT-lists.driftline.org For some reason, when I try to think of Nietszche (whom requires a lot =20 of authority, in my opinion, to speak about), I always look to Wagner =20 as an example of what Nietszche avoided later in life. I think Nietszche IS much more subtle and humble than this type of man of "power"... Wagner being the paranoiac and Nietszche being the Schizophrenic or perhaps a sort of psychotic. I think they use different types of memories and Nietszche is much more sober, much more =20 joyful. I have thought of the tears Nietszche would shed and in what =20 spirit he would smile and say, "Thus is life..." On Feb 23, 2005, at 10:44 AM, Aaron Bradford wrote: > To restrict Nietzsche to a conservative ideology is to cut off half of > his body. > While undoubtedly anti-democratic (Zarathustra and other texts are > fueled by > this), Nietzsche was far too subtle and far too explosive to be either > conservative or liberal; he was beyond this. His embracing of the > Dionysian > runs counter to conservative valuing (as his forays into the > Apollonian run > counter to liberalism). He used what he needed (what made him powerful > at a > given time--and thus was good) according to the situation. > > The revaluing of all values is both conservative and > anti-conservative. Anti in > that it destroys all previous values; conservative in that its aim is =20 > the > creation values, often times, for Nietzsche, ancient values. But even =20 > this is > an over-simplification. It may be necessary to cease thinking in these > dichotomies. > > Deleuze has always affirmed a Dionysian Nietzsche, which, it seems, =20 > toward the > end of Nietzsche's thought and life was Nietzsche. Deleuze's Nietzsche > may be > the best portrait of Nietzsche we have. > > Aaron > > Quoting "Dr. Harald Wenk" <hwenk-AT-web.de>: > >> Hallo, >> >> Deleuze and Guattari are neo-anarchistits. >> The commom justification for goverment in any form is, that >> people don't manage to do themselves. >> The anthropolic variant is to say they are to violent, greedy, >> egoistic anfd espially to lazy for learning the complicated things of >> division of work on free will, as a "conditio humana", that means >> written in the essence of commeon mankind, so unchangeable. >> This is the line of argumentation for the justific<aation of >> institutions, >> in germany most prominent developped by Atnold Gehlen - in his case >> combined >> with the idea of man being insufficent and so there was a need to >> develop >> techniology (from stoneage on) as compensation. >> The anarchistic view is the other way round: >> Take away the goverment, and people and things will flourish. >> Peolple, especially in the near as neighbours, know one another very =20 >> well >> and have all abilities - grounded on a rousseauistic unconconisness - >> to >> solve their probelems - which doesnt't get to complicated >> if not always tied to the problems of the other 6 Billion people >> living at >> present >> on our earth, but stay for the most local. >> The second line of argumentation for state or goverments is: >> there are too much people, masses - this aspect was strongly discussed >> till the 1930, prominet by Ortega y Gasset - so there arise problems >> of regulations that are only solveable by states and bureaucraties in >> an >> emphatic sense - an aspect emphasized by Max Weber. >> If you look at history, before the 19Th century the role of the >> state or nation in everday life was not great. >> This changed indeed with the growth of population - with Malthus >> struggle of nurishing following as a fix idea for the century, >> reaching >> until now. >> >> It may astonish you, but Nietzesche himself was very antianarchistic =20 >> and >> antidemocratic, looking at masses at something "Growing by itself" =20 >> and not >> really worthwhile. >> He was dreaming of the war for the rule of the world - which was tried >> from the ground of germany two times. >> >> But being psychological very sensitiv and original and against dumb >> economy and bureaucraty, he >> was taken up by a lot of sensitiv people, especially in arts. >> >> Indeed he was an ideologe of the conseratives, this was tried to be >> pointed out >> by Lukacs. >> >> >> >> And, you can reread the Ant-Oedipus, the unconsciousness is >> rousseauistic. >> >> This also tested by posing the problemof "the firing squad": >> How can soldiers shoot at the sanme time without being commanded by a >> general (or sergant or someone). >> >> >> Hope you got a glimps >> >> Dr. Harald Wenk >> >> >> Am Tue, 22 Feb 2005 14:15:12 -0500 schrieb Jeremy Livingston >> <jeremy.livingston-AT-gmail.com>: >> >>> On Tue, 22 Feb 2005 18:08:19 +0200, Dr Harald Wenk said: >>>> >>>> Deleuz and Guattari thought the unconciousness as "rousseauistic" =20 >>>> (in >>>> Anti-Oedipus), >>>> a healthy natural state. Thre only unhealthy desire is that of >>>> suppressing >>>> somebody, especially your nearest. >>> >>> Whoah, I don't know about that. Rousseauistic? The schizophrenic >>> experience, or the experience of the sorcerer/lycanthrope, is >>> anything >>> but gentle meek or mild. Their use of Nietzsche is not a pose: the >>> unconscious is rough, cruel, transgressive, alien, freak, bestial, >>> cybernetic, sidereal.... This is what they think of as the "healthy >>> natural state". Not necessarily hateful or violent, not necessarily >>> sadistic, but definitely Sadean, not Rousseauvian. >>> >>> They affirm that, and celebrate it. Can we? (This is not just their >>> challenge, but the one they've inherited from Nietzsche....) >>> >>> Jeremy >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List address: deleuze-guattari-AT-driftline.org >>> Info: >>> http://lists.driftline.org/listinfo.cgi/deleuze-guattari- >>> driftline.org >>> Archives: www.driftline.org >>> >> >> >> >> -- >> Erstellt mit Operas revolution=E4rem E-Mail-Modul: >> http://www.opera.com/m2/ >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List address: deleuze-guattari-AT-driftline.org >> Info: >> http://lists.driftline.org/listinfo.cgi/deleuze-guattari- >> driftline.org >> Archives: www.driftline.org >> > > > > _______________________________________________ > List address: deleuze-guattari-AT-driftline.org > Info: > http://lists.driftline.org/listinfo.cgi/deleuze-guattari-driftline.org > Archives: www.driftline.org > > Ms. Sylvie Ruelle http://home.earthlink.net/~sylvieruelle rw_artette_lc-AT-yahoo.com _______________________________________________ List address: deleuze-guattari-AT-driftline.org Info: http://lists.driftline.org/listinfo.cgi/deleuze-guattari-driftline.org Archives: www.driftline.org
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