To: <deleuze-guattari-AT-lists.driftline.org> Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2006 13:09:08 +0200 Subject: Re: [D-G] maths. Hello Liza, after some time, - my internet connection didn't function for some time - I respond to your question concerning the feeling of being a German and the reading of Nietzsche as a similar soul of thinking. Nietzesche told a lot of things looking at first sight very contra dictionary about Germans, woman, the war, virtue and so on - I think he was, as he said about himself, something like a poet-philosopher, a sight as far as I remember also shared by Deleuze. The Zarathustra is full of poetic pictures, stories, symbols and dramatic scenes - think of the dwarf in the scene where Zarathustra explains the theory of eternal recurrence as victory over time in sense of victory over revenge - revenge is indeed a very deep problem. What fascinated me and I think a lot of other people in Nietzsche is the wide and open look over things, as he had put it: "What about a book which doesn't raise us above all books". As a poet he got a deep feeling for the feelings, desires and longings of people. He tried to bind the highest ambitions in a certain way to the real existing world and not to something in heaven. Also he encourages one in trusting oneself and not to think in terms of guilt and imperfectness about oneself. Most influential to me was, that he was a psychologist who relates his insights to everyday situations and reactions of people in a poetic exploring / explaining way. This is not so clinical and technical as in Freud or other psychologists, it is also not so systematic, which in my eyes in psychology is more an advantage. So I read him mainly as a philosophical psychologist, not always coming from pathology and illness, but explaining the normal and healthy man/woman - of course that of the 19. century. If I read him nowadays, I find a lot of 19. century views in him and the problems of that time. His emphasizing of will of power and war was always strange to me. But he was the highest philosophy treating the individuum without any religion and not moralistic in the common sense. It is a kind to look at people and things as they real are - but not in the usual way of saying if there is not something supernatural in man, coming from a supreme being, god(s), then man is a kind of animal you can do with what you want. This is his conception of noble, a worth of man lying in himself since birth and in a way indestructible. This nobleness is a kind of feeling, of smell, the art one looks to oneself and likes oneself as a high being. I think, this feeling of nobleness lies within almost everyone and a lot of people feel that is very often about to be destroyed if they are treated too bad. This treatment often comes in the name of: "Who do you think you are?", "You are your usefulness and nothing else". "Look below your navel to see how noble you are." And this worth and nobleness is the source of inspiration from Nietzsche, also mentioned by Deleuze at the beginning of his book on Nietzsche. Now the Germans themselves in general are o.k., the history of Germany, which is a different thing - in my eyes you are not responsible for every action of the governments of your nation from the ages - with two world wars there is much to regret, but maybe they are to be explained out of the circumstances and thinking of that time. -----Original Message----- From: deleuze-guattari-bounces-AT-lists.driftline.org [mailto:deleuze-guattari-bounces-AT-lists.driftline.org]On Behalf Of Liza Kozner Sent: Montag, 5. Dezember 2005 15:20 To: deleuze-guattari-AT-lists.driftline.org Subject: Re: [D-G] maths. <<<You may find this boring, but it is also used in Deleuze: The Euclidean <<<space, <<<a little bit puzzled, being the mathematical represent ant of the state. in the book by newmand nagel on g=F6del there is euclide speaking, and an analysis by logic symbols like you know p and q etc, of the euclidian presupose, and this gives the opportunity for euclide to expose its method b4 it was argued to be self contradicted by logicians of 20th century like Frege or Russel, then G=F6del. And Euclide to me is not boring when he speaks. I think it's like Deleuze said about Plato, he constructed something, i find mathematics of Euclide close to concepts, something of greek philosophy, eg. theorem of infinite, the infinite is invented by the need of mathematic, and this is a fasinating momentum in mankinds history. so what you describe is boring only because its not creation, its what we mostly all have learned in school, its a summary of the activity of maths, not the real practice/creation, invention. what i think and why i ask you, here is since you say your a mathematician, is to be capable to address the non mathematician, not in making summaries as you just did, but by constructing. and rhizomize. instead of talking by words, and expressing your lack of faith in the artist, a kind of blindness, we would meet where we can, in creating something. you yourself were interested last year by proposal i adline did on the rhizomes movement. so in this way, it could be possible, to have you, and since you said it in one of your last mails, the expression/content abstract machine of function and matter non formed, tensors etc, you said we had a common ground, let's ex^ploit it. send emails with writing maths formulas, don't get shy. nietzsche said it, its the humility of the scientistis, so characteristic, you've read these Nietzsche passage, laboriously, the gravitas of working for the state apparatus. but every creator in maths, in science escapes from that, invents a war machine. i guess euclidian mathematics itself, before it became an apparatus part of the schools and universities and the discipline of thought, was a war machine, or very very close to it. if its not the case let's make it become so. so send emails with formulas. what do you need. what is wrong with this lsit for you? what do you need so you become creative, and the best part of you becomes active on this list? so that you and the others can be their best part, and relate to each others by best parts, by their perfecthood. <<If you need the topological definition, <<broadly speaking the border of a <<set of the power of a continuum is one dimension less than the <<original set, you can look on a book on topology, <<for example Whyburn, Analytical Topology. What is Philosophy as a chapter on science starting with Cantor theory of set, have a look at it. it's passionating yet very harsh to try and get it. what original set. is it the border forming a new set by being defined and created, did you speak of an original set. i had the same problem reading guattari's theory on Cantor, very difficult. i managed to get a decipherment 4 myself, but here come again the orginal set, about which noone has talked b4, can you clarify? <In this way it is done in Euclidean spaces. <Now string theory, a little bit popular by Stephen Hawkings book <on a short history of time: <The ground idea is, that instead of points without any <dimension and extension as in normal as Newtonian mechanics, <one puts a closed curve - the string - as starting point for describing the <movement of particles and bodies. <Sometimes it gives some troubles therefore. <Now, in the development of the formulas <describing the tubes of the movement of the string, the energies and the <velocities <there is one point, where we have an equation which holds <only if the dimension is taken to be ten. <This is then satisfactory from a mathematical point of view, <but physically everyone asks: Where are the left seven dimensions? <As far as I know this question has not be answered in a <sound way - also in regard to experimental data. you say there is one point. how is discovered this point. is it a given? why is this point needed? is it discovered, or created for an other purpose? how does it work? why would they choose to have closed curves, and for instance not open curves. because points become closed curves, so its an evolution of "classical" previous dimensional space.? something interesting why always vectorial space is represented in a fixed geometry, why is it never moving, movements. more esay probably.but since it is about physic, then the figures of the geometry could be moving themselves, no? ok tell me about how are these notions introduced. how rhiemann for example argues for the necessity of these notion to modify classical mathematics, euclidian ones, cartesians space? what is the genesis, the exteriority? ok greetings. Liz I think that maybe enough for now. Greetings Harald Wenk -----Original Message----- From: deleuze-guattari-bounces-AT-lists.driftline.org [mailto:deleuze-guattari-bounces-AT-lists.driftline.org]On Behalf Of Liza Kozner Sent: Freitag, 2. Dezember 2005 20:40 To: deleuze-guattari-AT-lists.driftline.org Subject: Re: [D-G] malgosia, Virginia, please your turn to speak. it's not a phantasm. if you think by common notion, outside of the imagination, you can learn to see how it works, not only the ideas that are anchored by intellectual discourse, but and thus out of anykind of interpretation, propaganda, you see how it works, how wee have or are being asked to surrender some part of ourselves for the highest powers of society. it's really not a phantasm. it's not immediately visible. you could get hallucination, see subliminal message and want to destroy your clock, your tv as a mystic. but what is important is to resist, to fight, not only to love God. it's the way of Abraham, to disobey, to turn the face away from God as God turns his face the other way. so it's not the discourse of imagination, of interpretation, of signs, is the discourse of analysis, instead than being analysed, you give the power to your body, to other people's body. much interested by artaud at the moment, when speaking about stage. in a world of Elie Faure's Indians digging in a mountain, people have lost, been stolen, either it is by capitalist war machines either by the state, i am trying to make the analysis, what is this, what is that, the proportions in the mixture, every elements, so there's analysis, but yet i (and thus it's virtualities, none less real!) and i want to work my mind in this direction at the moment. for what you say on not being proud. i think it's related because i don't line up to the vanities of human's celebration, there search for happyness. i think its part of class. classes who belong to the Image of Thought of the State or Capitalism, the Upper Classes, or the Upper Men, want to have standards, and i think, your judgment stems out from that, it's a Upper Class standard that drives you to tell me I am not proud. Pride is actually a matter of solitude, it's alone that you find pride, you have to invent your own values. It's not that there is no pride, but it's a virtue, not a moral, social jugment. ok? hwenk wrote: Hello Liza, it looks like you are not very proud of yourself. Sometimes the machinery and the world which is about to swallow one up or deform one is only a little bit a phantasm. As in Deleuze there is no phantasms, as far as I know, it may be a thinking with its affects almost on the whole to the own mind. Often the world does not know anything about the cruelties she does to people thinking to be a victim of her. As my advices do not end, this time I give a appraisal of self-content happiness. As we say in mathematics: "The details are left to the reader." greetings Harald Wenk -----Original Message----- From: deleuze-guattari-bounces-AT-lists.driftline.org [mailto:deleuze-guattari-bounces-AT-lists.driftline.org]On Behalf Of Liza Kozner Sent: Donnerstag, 1. Dezember 2005 05:24 To: deleuze-guattari-AT-lists.driftline.org Subject: Re: [D-G] malgosia, Virginia, please your turn to speak. Ok, i have just made this decision. Let's keep merry. Let's not debate. Let's just keep everything as usual. I am sorry if we have to be resigned, if we have to be little worms. It's the world, the arrangements who want it. Let'us be dashes of vanishing non-dimensional point, particles in chaotic fusion. Actualities disappearing with not awareness of the speed at which they are vanishing. And the example of mathematics? Well, it's good. Let's keep this aswell. Part of the sum. We're part of the sum. Living in the imaginating phantasmatic procession of algebraic numbers. I am rotten. It's michievous. I at least voice my truth. Not a Maria Bellen, saying, singing creativity and keeping silent. I am a worm which speaks. It speaks on a list which is good as an absurdity. We're working for the memory of a guy who decided there would be a list or lists. So let's avoid my proposition for a debate. It's absurd as well. This is absurd aswell. I like the way I am advancing, in the walls. My had crashes and i go up up up in the realm of vanishing words, words with no meanings. Like a snake I am growing. --------------------------------- To help you stay safe and secure online, we've developed the all new Yahoo! Security Centre. _______________________________________________ List address: deleuze-guattari-AT-driftline.org Info: http://lists.driftline.org/listinfo.cgi/deleuze-guattari-driftline.org Archives: www.driftline.org _______________________________________________ List address: deleuze-guattari-AT-driftline.org Info: http://lists.driftline.org/listinfo.cgi/deleuze-guattari-driftline.org Archives: www.driftline.org --------------------------------- How much free photo storage do you get? Store your holiday snaps for FREE with Yahoo! Photos. Get Yahoo! 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