File deleuze-guattari/deleuze-guattari.0703, message 11


To: <deleuze-guattari-AT-lists.driftline.org>
Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2007 17:47:05 +0100
Subject: Re: [D-G] Deleuze, electronic music and Deleuzian theory of body


Hello,

Indeed, this seems also to be  a hint for Andrija,
who may also find the links valuable, there is a treatment
of thr work of Castaneda in thousand Plateaux - already discussed
by me and others in this group.

Now in the "becoming intensive" of Thousand plateaux
Deleuze nad Guattari state that we were all coinded by
the drug experience, haven taken drugs or not.

I don't think so and I think so and it as wrong direction.

Yogic breathing techniques - at best taught by an InduanYoga teacher - are
also appreciated by
Anton Wilson in "the new Prometheus" (the author of "Illuminatus" and
coauthor of Timothy Leary -
the first and most prominent 68 movement researcher on hallucigenic drugs.
Timothy Leary spent over ten years in prison abd died on cancer in the
90ies.

Wilson emphasizes that there has been somr kind of "inner technolgy",
starting from schamanistc techniques also connectedwith drugs,
 which indeed treats "subjectivation (also in the sense of Deleuze and
Guattari)   and irregular mental
occurrances. It also treats building of overindiviual gruops spirits,
common beliefs and strong group feelings by psychotic like
controlled experiences  like initiation rites.
It looks like the pople in the links are somewhat related to that short
tradition of Leary, Wilson and others.

Not only in my eyes Yoga is the culimination and almost scientific
codification of these "inner"  techniques.


greetings Harald Wenk
-----Original Message-----
From: deleuze-guattari-bounces-AT-lists.driftline.org
[mailto:deleuze-guattari-bounces-AT-lists.driftline.org]On Behalf Of Jussi
Karsikas
Sent: Montag, 19. Marz 2007 23:28
To: deleuze-guattari-AT-lists.driftline.org
Subject: Re: [D-G] Deleuze, electronic music and Deleuzian theory of
body


Hi, while I appreciate your yogic/tantric (?) approach and am
opposed to use of neuroleptics/serotonin modulators etc. in
"psychiatry" (and of course stopping of the "process of the schizo"),
I would like to say the the study of so called "hallucinogenic drugs"
(some are circulating the word "entheogenic" around these days instead)
that was almost completely halted for mainly political and "moral"
reasons could/would greatly benefit humans. Somewhere in their
work D&G encouraged the study of intensities through study of "drugs" -
not meaning addiction or addictive chemicals (or "psychiatric" chemicals
as agents of social/behavioral/moral control) but substances that are
much more complex than we know yet in ways that look quite
fascinating. Still, I'm sure that most people should stay away from
many kinds of substances (addictive, entheogenic, deliriant or
otherwise)
and would benefit from simple but effective bodily relaxation/breathing
exercises instead.

I suggest (if you don't know them already) that you take a look
at the following sites for more information, some folks (I'm not
affiliated with any of these) are doing great work gathering
information and breaking up myths surrounding these things:

http://maps.org/
http://erowid.org/
http://www.cognitiveliberty.org/
http://deoxy.org/

Also if you want more information on the subject I can recommended books
by Jonathan Ott, who is very well read and experienced psychedelic
scholar:

http://www.erowid.org/culture/characters/ott_jonathan/ott_jonathan.shtml

All the best,
jk


On Mar 19, 2550 BE, at 1:12 PM, hwenk wrote:

> Hello,
>
> my insistence of yoga instead of drugs is very simple.
>
> It is a tested and very healthy sytem of practices
> free to ones own chice eb?ven in the details which enhance
> intesities and
> stabilize
> body and mind and is also bound to treat very
> hard and complicated cases and mental crisis.
> Including the mental irregulities which in   western culture are
> mostly
> treated by psychatries with very hard
> and suspicious medical drugs.
> So it is a solid background and backbone of mental and physical
> health and
> processes of
> subjectivation.
>
> It is also not `Logcentristic`and `Eurocentristic`.
>
> It is also very emprical by direct perception of effects.
>
> It is also ver ecolgical - the last writings of Guattari are
> concerned with
> an ?ecosophie`.
>
> It is open to personal freedom as much as possible -
> except that taking away the cause (the practice of exercise) is
> taking away
> the effect (the benefit).
>
> You even dance better with yoga than with drugs.
>
> It is indeed almost impossible to share the experience of the
> benefits of
> yoga without practicng it.
>
> It is also not possible to share the intellectual progress induced
> by a book
> without reading it.
>
> The benefits of yoga include developemnt of social compatible virtues
> (Niyamas - honesty, peacefulness,
> cultivation of sexual desires, greedlessness).
> The greates benefit is indeed mental stabiltity and enhancing
> feelings and
> thinking.
>
>
> So, the more I think about it and look at the experiences including
> my own,
> I am more than puzzled that Dleuzer and Guattari did not propagat more
> instead th euse o fdrugs,
> And if they missse to do so, why do the following intellectuals not
> do so,
> in spite of often
> phisiphizing on `the body` the body mind problem`on neurobiology
> and so on.
> Also regarding the eminent role of drugs of any kind in everday life.
> Even the `dispositv of  prison` and the crimnals is much feeded
> by selling and consumption of drugs.
> Did Marx not spreak of  religion as "opium for the folks".
> What about the original opium?
>
> Spinoza, also reported to have had the behaviour of a saint, was
> almost killed by a riot and banished by an awful decret from the
> jewish
> community in Amsterdam.
> He was so much hated that Oldenbourg, the secretary of the Royal
> Society in
> London,
> tried to protect him in spite  he did not share his views.
> A nowadays `materialistic`analysis would notice that he
> bothered too many people, especially the theologicans, in their
> material
> interests.
> The behavior and the arguments of these theologicans were often
> much less
> social compatible.
> The argument ?ad hominem?- that is personal attack, was widely
> usaed against
> him.
> Of course with less care regarding the niyama honetsy or truthfulness.
> `Give the dog a bad name and then hang hum up`.
>
> Personal attacks  are also used nowadays sometimes,
> wher a `niyama`social compatible style is often resonpoded by far less
> virtue like attacks -
> including  instistance of  an already given  `social compatibility`.
>
>
> Spinoza inaugurated a text critical bible reading and
> a non personal god metaphysics - taking away two cornerstones of
> theological, especially the institional offical church doctrines,
> intellectual power.
>
>
>
>
>
> As Deueleuze and Gauuatri started from the body, the simple
> question is
> how to make the best out of it including the question how to
> overcome mental illness like schizophrenia.
> In course of the scientific and technical optimism
> Deleuze and Guattari set  a lot of hope into drugs.
> There had been a lot of expereiements with psychedilic drugs like
> LDS (which
> is visual halluciantora
> contrary to schizophrenic hallucanotry experiences, which are in
> general
> more auditory - remarked Merleau Ponty in the
>  `Phenomonolgy of Perception` ).
>
> The inspiration of Deleuze and Guattari was tat in a way the growth
> of the
> brain by
> biological growth process and mental learning has in psychosis a high
> level, which make it sinilar to  very intensive phasis of
> subjectivation
> like crisis for normal people.
> The tragedy for the schizophrenics is that this process is stoppped
> and Deleuzes and Guattaries inspiration was to say one has `to go
> further"`,
> to carry on that ``schizophrenic process"
> of more and more intensites and growing of the brain.
>
> This growing of the brain and highr intensities are also there at
> normal
> people, at a minor extent.
> Therer are often crisis amd moods of depression or changes of mood.
> Times when one is very vulnerable for example.
>
> Deleuze and Guattari hoped that the medical drugs, neuroleptica, would
> hinder the schizophrenic  to get catatonic or to come to some
> breakdown (the cite Laing that: ``The breakthrough does not come
> down to  a
> breakdown".)
>
> Now everyone knows, the most schizophrenics try to avoid the
> medical drugs,
> because the drugs do
> notthing else than ``stopping the schizophrenic process".
> On the other hand, the danger of catatony is not so great
> regarding the mass of people treated with these drugs.
>
> So people are hold back in their development because of risks,
> which are not
> there to a wide extent.
> If they woul do intensive yoga this would be far better.
>
> A third thing is that the chemisitry of the brain is so complicated,
> that the neuroleptica used at the time oun the 60ies and 70ies
> and even nowadays are very primitive compared with that.
>
>
>
> It is like to repair a microprocessor with a sledge hammer.
>
>
> Indeed there is no drug free treatmeant of schiziphrenia in offical
> psychatrie.  That is more tha to regret after the movement of
> Antipsychiatry.
>
>
>
>
> You may know that also  depression is more and more tried to heal with
> medical drugs.
> So drugs are some kind of ``easy way" which of course for the brain
> does not
> function.
>
> Another starting point of Deleuze and Guattari was the weakness of
> psychanalytical methods in healing mental illness.
> This is still the case. Here yoga and body driven techniques are a
> way out.
>
>
> The use of drugs is very very popular and  common.
> In over 90 per cent the doctor does nothing other than to give you
> advice
> and  a recipt for a drug and the drug is taken.
>
>
> As I mentioned in an earlier email, in the use of neuroleptica
> especially
> the dopmin reaction in the forehead is
> dimished which leads to a loss of orientation regding ``stratetic"
> thinking"!
> This makes the schizophrenics more easy to trick - which indeed  is
> actaully
> done!
> It is so bad that they are even more complicated tricked as their
> being
> trickable is smelled out.
> This comes also because, as Reich had remarked the richness and
> creativity -
> which made Guattari loving the schizophrenics - are closer to
> the desires of the uncouncioussnes is often experienced as a danger
> by other
> people which they try to avoid.
>
> So schizophrenics are more attacked and get less defense because of
> the
> medical drugs - including the loss
> of social status and intellectual abiliteis.
> The medical drugs make the  more coarse, more down to animal
> instincs - like
> hunger, thirst and raw sexual desire.
> Also the metabolism is changed, so th awater is incorporated making
> them
> thick.
> This is accompanied  with a  diminshing of the connections to the
> fine
> neocortecx structures.
>
> In other cultures, not only in yoga, ther are also techniques in
> sufi orders and schamanistic techniques, which treat   ``schizophrenic
> process"
> and indeed carry it further on without ending in catanoy.
>
> It is also ecological to do it without chemistry.
>
>
> In spite there is a big discussion on ``Logocentrism" and
> ``Eourocentrism"
> the simple intelligent choice of suited also non linguistic, namely
> physical
> body techniques from other  cultures
> is not made or emphasized also they are tested in very long and
> wide terms.
>
>
> Best greetings Harald Wenk
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: deleuze-guattari-bounces-AT-lists.driftline.org
> [mailto:deleuze-guattari-bounces-AT-lists.driftline.org]On Behalf Of
> .+oot8am wakeup
> Sent: Montag, 19. Marz 2007 02:55
> To: deleuze-guattari-AT-lists.driftline.org
> Subject: Re: [D-G] Deleuze, electronic music and Deleuzian theory of
> body
>
>
> Hi,
>
> I would recommend tracking down the informal talks between Deleuze and
> Pinhas from 1977. These talks are great, since Pinhas' electronic
> music project Heldon inspired such direct implication for the
> discussion.
>
> However, about these particular papers... they seem to be gone from
> Pinhas' webdelzeuze.com, they are fine translations, I hope they are
> not gone for good. [If they are found could you please post a link for
> me in this email-list, thank you.]
>
> So, here is another link to the 2nd part of it... but its really the
> first part that sets up the disscussion around a standard
> dialectical-materialist frame and what follows in part 2 is of more
> the same, its great.... the "pulse" which territorializes the aion
> flow of the dancer's experience is explained in part.
> These 3 main modes of territorialism, incl. collage, can be found in
> modern electronic music and linked to blacksmith's who forged
> instruments for Handel's brass compositions.
>
> Deleuze & Pinhas discussion on music:
>
> http://www.uam.es/ra/sin/pensamiento/deleuze/onmusic.htm
>
> - (look on google for a better copy maybe?)
>
>
> -> Somebody wrote a paper about it here:
>
> http://www.echo.ucla.edu/Volume3-Issue1/smithmurphy/
> deleuze_and_guattari.pdf
> .
>
> Also, I think hwenk is about ready for a major tantric experience
> regarding uncontrollable bodily functions for dancing. Even some of
> the most individualist thinkers like to get up off their seats and
> dance to the funky beats. We are never alone and we are never silent
> (I am speaking for all yogi masters here) and it is a real question
> about the particular yogic life of the rhizome, it is very imaginable
> isn't it? I think even Spinoza encouraged the individualist thinker to
> seek identity with the social body, this is the simplicity of
> hegemony. hwenk's business with the yoga self is such a very external
> experience where we all participate here; its pushing and pulling
> muscles, a way to create a social body, mostly because of this tantra
> tantra.
>
> der crawboney
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