File deleuze-guattari/deleuze-guattari.0703, message 6

To: <>
Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2007 11:43:44 +0100
Subject: Re: [D-G] indulgence and freedom

Hello Paul,

For short, if it comes also in the realm of criminality,
I tend to say No.

The other side of freedom is indeed, that so many people are
making advices and giving orders without taking any care of your free
that an instinctive defence of freedom is incorporated in almost everybody,
especially when you are young,
with some right. The argument of misuse is misused itself very often.

But I think that we have a lot more possibilities than earlier generations
earlier generations, the one which had its youth in the 60, 70ies(like me)
or 80ies had already
made more bad experiences with drugs.

It looks like an easy way of getting more intensities, but young people have
intensive feelings
without drugs already. It is  a kind of wasting a lot of power. But there is
a lot of power and sensibility - that is the very good news.
This is very often invested in music, active and passive, poetry arts, films
and in human relations - especially love affairs. This has been often the
case and is still in leisure classes.

The more freedom, the free time and powers you have are "the line of
Where is real liberation which is stable and during and build up piece b
piece a happy life.

Here we got the problem of the Anti-Oedipe. On the one hand there should be
freedom and on the other hand there should be
some e more or less simple orientations or directions
of behaviour and thinking which would enable a living which is healthy and
make the sensibility something real.
You act and feel more sensible and in the long run also the institutions
and the circumstances become more human and fine.
This of course without suppression, but with motivation of efforts and
avoiding dangers, which are of course there.

I cannot say that I am too satisfied with the anti-Oedipe in this respects.
Often I learned much more from literature, indeed Kafka and Proust and
Nietzsche, also from
Marx and Spinoza, what good and fine and sensible thinking and feeling is.
Even if it is boring classical, also Dostojewskij is sometimes really fine.

The fresh drive of something new and liberation, especially concerning
sexual questions - supported by the new anti-baby pill - has also inspired
the success
of Deleuze and Guattari, who tried to make a new style of living of the
in the late 60ies.
But as Marcuse had put it: "Freedom from something" is only the half
"freedom to something .. " is also important.
So we are not longer imprisoned by suppressive moral codes.

So, you are sensible enough without drugs and enhancing by enhancing the
abilities of the body
by bodily activities, like yoga and sports (yoga is much more intelligent
gives far more better and far reaching effects concerning also the stability
of the nervous system) is.

If there are desires, there are very good, fine, healthy and social
compatible things
to satisfy them.

The older generation is much more generous now than the one we had.

greetings Harald Wenk

-----Original Message-----
[]On Behalf Of PaulZ
Sent: Freitag, 16. Marz 2007 09:34
Subject: [D-G] indulgence and freedom

Hi Harald

what do youu think about freedom and indulgence?
Do you think the freedom of the senses to indulge can overtake a line of
flight and mire it down in a plateaux of ecstasy?


----- Original Message -----
From: "hwenk" <>
To: <>
Sent: Friday, March 16, 2007 12:47 AM
Subject: Re: [D-G] Deleuze, electronic music and Deleuzian theory of body

> Hello Andrija,
> concerning the use of freedom there is a classical song in electronic
> music
> which handles the theme in an aestehetic, dramatic manner:
> "The house of the rising sun", most popular in the version of Eric
> Bourdon:
> "Oh mother, tell your children, not to do, what I have done .. .. "
> Where the ruinous aspect of the (ab)use of freedom is emphasized.
> There are a lot of famous musicans who destroyed their lifes by use of
> drugs, also they were famous and had a lot of money.
> It is like driving your "Merceds Benz" (Janis Joplin) against a wall.
> For "You don't know what the body is able to" - Spinoza - without drugs.
> Yogis know.
> Concerning drugs like ecstasy, Deleuze nad Guattari
> look at the "yellow liver" and "the dealer" and see and
> empty body without organs produced by these drugs.
> This is in thousand Plateaux: "How to make a Body without organs."
> The they admire Henry Miller as he described to have drugged himself by
> drinking a lot of water.
> In my eyes and experience yoga breathing techniques done for a few hours
> are
> much more
> bound to give you feelings of your brain and body which let you forget all
> about drugs.
> Instead the offer of a cigarettte may look like something like an attack
> to
> your  body and brain feeling.
> Now, as a lot of Indian sects know a lot about religous trance I think
> they
> will simply deny that
> rave with ecstasy has something to do with it expect abuse of words.
> Concerning music the reference is "About the ritournelle" in Thousand
> plateaus,
> and "Becoming Intensiv, becoming animal" also there.
> If you seek literatur about Deleuze and Guattari: There is a little
> bibliography in:
> "Gilles Deleuze and the theater of philosophy" edited by Constantin V.
> Boundas and Dorothea Olkowsk, Routledge, New York 1994.
> greetings
> Harald Wenk
> -----Original Message-----
> From:
> []On Behalf Of
> Andrija Filipovic
> Sent: Donnerstag, 15. Marz 2007 21:36
> To:
> Subject: [D-G] Deleuze, electronic music and Deleuzian theory of body
> Dear Harald,
> Sorry, but I can't help you in both respects.
> As you may already have been advised by - in your eyes by too many -
> people,
> such a thesis without personal experience is not very fruitful and
> personal
> experince with such hard drugs are strongly not to advise in my eyes.
> Experience of electronic music does not necessarily include consumation of
> psychedelic drugs. Although some may take them at the psy-trance events,
> this is their own choice and thus is not mine to question their decisions.
> However, I find the aspect of psychedelic drugs as enhancers of aesthetic
> experience a very interesting one, especially when considered together
> with
> the dance and what Jose Gill has to say about it in his "Metamorphoses of
> the Body" and James Landau in his essay "The flesh of raving:
> Merleau-Ponty
> and the 'experience' if ecstasy" which can be found in "Rave Culture and
> Religion".
> I was looking for recommendations on theory of electronic music through
> Deleuze's terminology and, if available, theory of experience of such
> music
> within the same conceptual field.
> Andrija
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