From: "Alan Cook" <alangregorycook-AT-msn.com>
To: puptcrit-AT-lists.driftline.org
Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2006 04:47:13 GMT
Subject: [Puptcrit] Marketing Puppet Shows
While I applaud all the desire for Independent survival without Government help, Sandy has confessed she can only help a handful-- which is another reason we need PBS to continue.
During the Great Depression, Tony Sarg was offered a job in Federal Theatre under WPA and turned it down, preferring to work for himself, He was able to do so, but it is significant that he later went bankrupt, died shortly after, and is buried in Ohio.
And Vincent van Gogh, whose paintings remain eminently popular, was so market-savy that he sold ONE PAINTING in his lifetime. The starving-artist requirement is for the birds. There are plenty of hack artists painting for the current market, but none of them will ever be worth millions.
In 1965, inside the Soviet Satellites, government-employed puppeteers in Rumania, Poland, Bulgaria et., envied that puppeteers in the US were free to express themselves through their art. Sandy points out that she censors herself to please clients. Similarly, I told the puppeteers behind the Iron Curtain that we may be free to express, but if you wanted to eat, you might not say much.
Not much has changed in 41 years.
ALAN COOK
-----Original Message-----
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Sent: Tue, 13 Jun 2006 19:30:58 -0700
To: puptcrit-AT-lists.driftline.org
Subject: puptcrit Digest, Vol 20, Issue 27
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Today's Topics:
1. Re: survival tips (Joe)
2. Re: survival tips (Jimsan777-AT-aol.com)
3. Re: survival tips (Jimsan777-AT-aol.com)
4. Re: survival tips (Jimsan777-AT-aol.com)
5. Re: EDUCATION (Jimsan777-AT-aol.com)
6. Re: survival tips (Adam Bennett)
7. 2 cents on education (Tara Conlon)
8. Re: survival tips (Sandy Barton)
9. Re: 2 cents on education (Sandy Barton)
10. Re: EDUCATION (Sandy Barton)
11. Re: "Defence, Law & Justice" & Govt/and PBS (Sandy Barton)
12. Glove Puppeteers in NY? (BiersBlackwood-AT-aol.com)
13. Re: Glove Puppeteers in NY? (Deborah Hunt)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2006 17:27:52 -0400
From: Joe <joe-AT-dunfee.com>
Subject: Re: [Puptcrit] survival tips
To: puptcrit-AT-lists.driftline.org
Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.0.20060613170222.01e4edf8-AT-dunfee.com>
I said;
>> If any of the artists you mentioned couldn't raise enough support for
>> their work without government money, then there is a problem with
their work.
Malgosia said;
>There is a problem with the work of the New York Philharmonic? ...
>This costs a lot of money, and even if the hall is filled for every concert,
>this does not pay the costs.
Note that on the original message, when I said "something is wrong
with their work," I included both the art itself, and their ability
to educate others about their art. (I am not sure if you were clear on that)
But, let me submit another example of an organization doing things at
a similar scale to the Philharmonic, but without government
money. When I lived in Florida, I was a member of an organization
which owned an auditorium seating about 2,500 (if I recall
correctly). Part of its weekly events included orchestral music (no
admission for that), and arts classes. And the arts offerings are
only a small part of what it offers to the community. This
organization is able to get along fine without government monies.
If the New York Philharmonic is as good and valuable as you say, then
I would expect them to be able to attract the public support through
donations, ticket sales, as well as CD's of their music. Of course,
I know nothing about the spending habits of the
Philharmonic. Sometimes money (for an organization or business
department) is spent simply because it is available, and won't be
available next year if they don't show they need the money. I
haven't heard a lot of complements about how well the government
spends its money lately.
But, the above is not my focus... rather, it is that we shouldn't
allow artists to be lax on their efforts to get others involved with
their art form. The organization I was a member of mostly relied on
word-of-mouth, not an advertising budget, but cheap word of mouth to
spread its message.
Joe Dunfee joe-AT-dunfee.com
Gordonville, Pennsylvania, U.S.A.
------------------------------
Message: 2
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2006 19:40:09 EDT
From: Jimsan777-AT-aol.com
Subject: Re: [Puptcrit] survival tips
To: puptcrit-AT-lists.driftline.org
Message-ID: <2d4.8d519f9.31c0a6d9-AT-aol.com>
In a message dated 6/13/06 9:51:35 AM, ma-AT-panix.com writes:
> Jim, let me understand this.? You think that the Joffrey Ballet, the Alvin
> Ailey Dance Company, the Mark Morris Dance Company, Peter Sellars, Robert
> Wilson, Bill Viola, the New York Philharmonic, the Boston Symphony, etc.,
> - all of which receive public funding - are just vanities that serve to feed
> the artists' inflated egos?? Please explain.
>
Primarily I was referring to puppetry, not huge organizations that always
need benefactors. I've been a supporter of the LA Philharmonic for over 35
years, and the LA Music Center, AND I've performed with the LA Phil on several
occasions...and of course we are on the LA Music Center Education Division
Roster for over 20 years too.
All these public service organizations must have endowments and public
support as ticket prices never cover the costs. And the only thing more
expensive than war is.....Opera. To reiterate, the question to which I responded
was with respect to puppetry. (And Alvln Ailey is my all-time favorite dance
company.) Pardon my quick response. I'm working overtime on a BBC-TV
promotional project at the moment.
Cheer! Jim Gamble
------------------------------
Message: 3
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2006 19:41:06 EDT
From: Jimsan777-AT-aol.com
Subject: Re: [Puptcrit] survival tips
To: puptcrit-AT-lists.driftline.org
Message-ID: <2c4.91ad659.31c0a712-AT-aol.com>
In a message dated 6/13/06 11:24:00 AM, bdr1020-AT-hotmail.com writes:
> People who make a living in puppetry have to produce shows that people will
> buy. Shows have to be marketable.
>
Well said! Jim Gamble
------------------------------
Message: 4
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2006 19:42:07 EDT
From: Jimsan777-AT-aol.com
Subject: Re: [Puptcrit] survival tips
To: puptcrit-AT-lists.driftline.org
Message-ID: <4cf.134c16a.31c0a74f-AT-aol.com>
In a message dated 6/13/06 11:54:11 AM, joe-AT-dunfee.com writes:
> Jim, let me understand this.? You think that the Joffrey Ballet,
> ? .... etc.,
> >- all of which receive public funding - are just vanities that serve to
> feed
> >the artists' inflated egos?? Please explain.
>
This is not what I said. I was referring to puppet shows on a much smaller
scale...Jim Gamble
------------------------------
Message: 5
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2006 19:43:37 EDT
From: Jimsan777-AT-aol.com
Subject: Re: [Puptcrit] EDUCATION
To: puptcrit-AT-lists.driftline.org
Message-ID: <494.31ae685.31c0a7a9-AT-aol.com>
In a message dated 6/13/06 1:33:55 PM, alangregorycook-AT-msn.com writes:
> There are many problems in our lives which can ONLY be solved working
> together, whether in a puppet Guild, on a chatline for puppeteers, workiung in a
> town, a State or a Nation. If we turn a blind eye to the needs, we perpetuate
> the problems. I know what Jesus would do--he worried about feeding the hungry
> and housing the poor.
>
> Best,
>
> ALAN COOK
>
Well Said, Alan. Jim Gamble
------------------------------
Message: 6
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2006 23:46:22 +0100 (BST)
From: "Adam Bennett" <adam-AT-dynamicnewanimation.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [Puptcrit] survival tips
To: puptcrit-AT-lists.driftline.org
Message-ID:
<1104.82.43.243.109.1150238782.squirrel-AT-maxproxy7.uk2net.com>
Am I to understand that a religious organisation like the Keystone
Evangelical Free church pays taxes? If it is tax exempt, as I understand
religious organisations are, then it is effectively receiving a government
subsidy.
Also if PBS is losing subsidy because of perceived political bias of PBS
against the current administration, that is a damning indictment of a
paranoid administration, not an argument to approve of the measure.
If all contributors to this forum got kicked off it every time they
contributed something the moderator didn't like....you get my drift
Adam
> >Jim, let me understand this. You think that the Joffrey Ballet,
> .... etc.,
> >- all of which receive public funding - are just vanities that serve to
> feed
> >the artists' inflated egos? Please explain.
> >
> >-m
>
> Let me jump in with something I wrote in a private reply I sent to a
> member of the list. (I was concerned that we were too far off the
> puppetry topic, but I do welcome some of this discussion)
>
> If a particular artist cannot get support directly from his fellow
> citizen, either their art is not worth it, or in the case of a
> talented artist, they have failed to educate the public about the
> value of their art.
>
> I am part of an organization called Keystone Evangelical Free
> Church. With our membership of a few hundred, we manage to have a
> property and keep a full time staff of 4. We also host artistic
> performances, and encourage youth participation. None of this
> involves money from the government.
>
> If any of the artists you mentioned couldn't raise enough support for
> their work without government money, then there is a problem with their
> work.
>
> Another significant issue with government funding is that the
> government must pick and choose what to fund. One of the issues
> mentioned with the PBS funding cut was a political bias of PBS
> against the current administration. To the extent that PBS is
> dependent upon the government, the government has control of PBS and
> can choose to withdraw their support as they wish.
>
>
> Joe Dunfee joe-AT-dunfee.com
> Gordonville, Pennsylvania, U.S.A.
>
> _______________________________________________
> List address: puptcrit-AT-lists.driftline.org
> Admin interface:
> http://lists.driftline.org/listinfo.cgi/puptcrit-driftline.org
> Archives: http://www.driftline.org
>
------------------------------
Message: 7
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2006 17:21:54 -0700 (PDT)
From: Tara Conlon <putmyhandinsidethepuppethead-AT-yahoo.com>
Subject: [Puptcrit] 2 cents on education
To: puptcrit-AT-lists.driftline.org
Message-ID: <20060614002154.15712.qmail-AT-web30912.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
> WOW! So are you saying the public school system did so well, that 9
out of
> 10 parents that attended the public school system do not have the
smarts to
> teach their own children or make enough money to buy the resources.
I guess
> the public school system has done a great job.
At many of my jobs, I have gotten stuck training new employees. My favorite was a girl who was attending NYU (a tough school to get into, by most standards). The same girl could not handle basic instructions (ie. pick up the metal pitcher. the one in front of you. Pick It Up!!!!!) without getting flustered. I cannot conceive of such a person teaching their own children, well educated or not.
Oh yeah, lets not forget that most teachers are specifically trained, at college level, to teach. That's not quite the same thing as a parent who has simply 'made it through the public school system'. My sister homeschools her daughters and does a wonderful job (my nieces are definitely getting a better education than we did). However, it's not for everyone, and many families do not have the resourcesto get by without both parents working full time (the cost of college has gone up drastically, as well as healthcare, etc. and it's only getting worse).
-Tara
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
------------------------------
Message: 8
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2006 20:25:52 -0400
From: Sandy Barton <sandbar-AT-wowway.com>
Subject: Re: [Puptcrit] survival tips
To: puptcrit-AT-lists.driftline.org
Message-ID: <448F5790.8020908-AT-wowway.com>
Joe wrote:
> One of the issues
>mentioned with the PBS funding cut was a political bias of PBS
>against the current administration. To the extent that PBS is
>dependent upon the government, the government has control of PBS and
>can choose to withdraw their support as they wish.
>
>
This is no different than any other patron. If my show doesn't meet up
with what the patron finds acceptable, I lose funding. I have to watch
the topics of my shows in one local village or they won't hire me
again. I'd love to do a skit for a slam about some of the antics of the
local school board, but I'd never get hired in the district again.
Makes no sense to dis the patron then ask, "Please, sir, may I have some
more?"
Sandy
SDG
------------------------------
Message: 9
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2006 20:29:48 -0400
From: Sandy Barton <sandbar-AT-wowway.com>
Subject: Re: [Puptcrit] 2 cents on education
To: puptcrit-AT-lists.driftline.org
Message-ID: <448F587C.80604-AT-wowway.com>
Tara Conlon wrote:
> Oh yeah, lets not forget that most teachers are specifically trained, at college level, to teach.
>
>
Not a good argument from a homeschooler's point of view. <G> Google
"John Taylor Gatto" and have a nice read.
Sandy
SDG
------------------------------
Message: 10
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2006 20:56:23 -0400
From: Sandy Barton <sandbar-AT-wowway.com>
Subject: Re: [Puptcrit] EDUCATION
To: puptcrit-AT-lists.driftline.org
Message-ID: <448F5EB7.1090008-AT-wowway.com>
Alan Cook wrote:
>There are many problems in our lives which can ONLY be solved working together, whether in a puppet Guild, on a chatline for puppeteers, workiung in a town, a State or a Nation. If we turn a blind eye to the needs, we perpetuate the problems. I know what Jesus would do--he worried about feeding the hungry and housing the poor.
>
>
Alan,
First encouraging thing I've heard you say. Acknowledging that the
Constitution says nothing about education (and that the US Dept. of
Education website actually says that education is the responsibility of
those at the local level not the feds) does not mean that we should be
turning a blind eye. To the contrary, it means that we should all be
using our skill and talents to help fix the problems around us.
I've done community theatre, served on boards, etc. all gratis. I saw
the opportunity to make a difference in the community and I
volunteered. I've done puppet shows and career days at inner-city
schools and community centers and never expected payment from them.
Other gigs carried me through. Call it paying it back or paying
forward, whichever, but I got some breaks when I was young and I'm
trying to give some breaks as well.
I'm a firm believer in cultural literacy, so I tell the familiar
stories. That's why I'm a puppeteer. Check out www.johnpatrick.ca/ for
more on what cultural literacy can do for a community. But telling
stories, whether through theatre or puppetry is one way I try to affect
the little corner of my world. Homeschooling and homeschooling support
are others.
I may not be able to reach the millions of hurting, but I can reach a
handful. And I can reach a new generation with my children and their
friends so that they can reach even more. I mentioned to Alan privately
that my sons do outreach work: one to the homeless and poor of New York
City, the other to troubled teens at a residence camp in Arkansas. What
is it they say, "Each one, teach one?" Well, I've got two sons planning
and doing bigger things so much earlier in life than I ever dreamed of
doing.
So, while we're fussing and bickering over the possible demise of PBS
(for which I, too, would mourn), I'd like to encourage that we each one
teach one instead of expecting Uncle Sam to take care of the problems we
see around us.
Sandy
SDG
------------------------------
Message: 11
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2006 21:12:08 -0400
From: Sandy Barton <sandbar-AT-wowway.com>
Subject: Re: [Puptcrit] "Defence, Law & Justice" & Govt/and PBS
To: puptcrit-AT-lists.driftline.org
Message-ID: <448F6268.7010709-AT-wowway.com>
Steve Axtell wrote:
> The Arts will survive regardless of what the government does with the
> funding. Art is our heartbeat...our humanity...our God-given genius.
Steve, I missed this earlier, and I'm sorry I did. What a great
sentiment! When my oldest was still being hsed, he was introduced to G.
K. Chesterton through a book about his writings on the arts, /Christian
Imagination: GK Chesterton on the Arts. /This book, followed by
Chesterton's actual writings, followed by Madaline L'Engle's /Walking on
Water: Reflections on Faith and the Arts/ and several other books that
I couldn't keep up with really formed the basis for his artistic
consciousness. He's a writer, a filmmaker, a musician, a puppeteer, and
an actor.
What I've learned from him is that God gave us the desire to create,
just as He created. As puppeteers/artists, we create our own worlds,
people, animals, etc. Remarkable!
Sandy
SDG
------------------------------
Message: 12
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2006 21:55:43 EDT
From: BiersBlackwood-AT-aol.com
Subject: [Puptcrit] Glove Puppeteers in NY?
To: puptcrit-AT-lists.driftline.org
Message-ID: <2c2.942fc3c.31c0c69f-AT-aol.com>
Hello, PuptCrit List! I hate to take us away from the discussion on PBS,
government funding of the arts in general, and public education vs.
homeschooling, but...
I did have a question regarding glove puppeteers. I am looking for some in
the New York City area (I myself am in the Bronx), as well as people who may
just think they want to TRY glove, or hand, puppetry. The idea is to get some
shows done, and perhaps even create a troupe or two, as Deborah Hunt recently
did in Puerto Rico. (I think Deborah managed to get about half a dozen
troupes in puppet booths.)
So I'm looking hard for collaborators... and it's proving hard, hard indeed.
There was a young lady who had posted to the PoA message board some months
ago looking for the same thing, and she just posted the same query on Craig's
List, but she has decided she doesn't have the time to put into doing shows
after all. If anyone on the list has any interest in this, a subject I've
posted at PoA myself, and may have brought up here before... or if you think you
know someone to whom you might forward this note... please feel free to email me
offlist. It would be great to do a script where I could have more than one
puppet up and moving at once!
Appreciatively,
Sean K.
------------------------------
Message: 13
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2006 23:30:45 -0300
From: "Deborah Hunt" <dhunt-AT-caribe.net>
Subject: Re: [Puptcrit] Glove Puppeteers in NY?
To: <puptcrit-AT-lists.driftline.org>
Message-ID: <008c01c68f5a$8b3a9a20$49ca06cc-AT-userwhx1menigu>
reply-type=original
Sean,
Perhaps a good idea would be just to start a workshop teaching people
interested to make and use glove puppets finishing with a presentation at
the end. From that group may emerge people who want to continue working
together. The people I worked with on the Punch project had not made glove
puppets before . Now each of them has their own Punch cast and booth and the
oportunity to keep performing....together or on their own. Own final show
together (6 puppeteers, 6 booths and 60 puppets) was, as one member of the
public said "demente"....people want us to perform again at the end of
summer.
just an idea. If I was in NY I would enlist.
all the best
Deborah
----- Original Message -----
From: <BiersBlackwood-AT-aol.com>
To: <puptcrit-AT-lists.driftline.org>
Sent: Tuesday, June 13, 2006 10:55 PM
Subject: [Puptcrit] Glove Puppeteers in NY?
> Hello, PuptCrit List! I hate to take us away from the discussion on PBS,
> government funding of the arts in general, and public education vs.
> homeschooling, but...
>
> I did have a question regarding glove puppeteers. I am looking for some
> in
> the New York City area (I myself am in the Bronx), as well as people who
> may
> just think they want to TRY glove, or hand, puppetry. The idea is to get
> some
> shows done, and perhaps even create a troupe or two, as Deborah Hunt
> recently
> did in Puerto Rico. (I think Deborah managed to get about half a dozen
> troupes in puppet booths.)
>
> So I'm looking hard for collaborators... and it's proving hard, hard
> indeed.
> There was a young lady who had posted to the PoA message board some months
> ago looking for the same thing, and she just posted the same query on
> Craig's
> List, but she has decided she doesn't have the time to put into doing
> shows
> after all. If anyone on the list has any interest in this, a subject
> I've
> posted at PoA myself, and may have brought up here before... or if you
> think you
> know someone to whom you might forward this note... please feel free to
> email me
> offlist. It would be great to do a script where I could have more than
> one
> puppet up and moving at once!
>
> Appreciatively,
>
> Sean K.
> _______________________________________________
> List address: puptcrit-AT-lists.driftline.org
> Admin interface:
> http://lists.driftline.org/listinfo.cgi/puptcrit-driftline.org
> Archives: http://www.driftline.org
>
------------------------------
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