File puptcrit/puptcrit.0606, message 235


To: puptcrit-AT-lists.driftline.org
Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2006 15:49:21 GMT
Subject: Re: [Puptcrit] puptcrit Digest, Vol 20, Issue 29


Hey Dan--

It IS hard not to get depressed these days.

We here in the USA have the dumbest President Ever, and the Dumbest Ever Voters who re-elected him (the first election was totally illegal).

If we are to depend on homeschooling to solve national problems, that won't be sufficient effort.
In Los Angeles there are thousands of families on the streets, so how do you homeschool wihout a home?

Sandy felt we should not air these concerns on puptcrit, and yet in some private e-mails I got to know her a bit. Before, she was just a self-censoring cypher.

We actually got a two-way dialog going.

That is more than I get with the average voters. If we did not have protests, we'd still have slavery and women still could not vote. I like a little righteous protest over injustices--it makes it harder for the assholes to get away with stuff,

We sure have a long way to go.

ALAN COOK


-----Original Message-----
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To: puptcrit-AT-lists.driftline.org
Subject: puptcrit Digest, Vol 20, Issue 29

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Today's Topics:

   1. Re: puppetry for infants (Dan Vie)
   2. Re: Marketing Puppet Shows (Kismet)
   3. Re: puppetry for infants (Christopher Hudert)
   4. Re: puptcrit Digest, Vol 20, Issue 17 (Christopher Hudert)
   5. Re: Puppeteers for Young Ones (Christopher Hudert)
   6. More on Puppeteers for Young Ones (Christopher Hudert)
   7. Re: Call for Puppeteers for Young Ones (Christopher Hudert)


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message: 1
Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2006 00:04:54 -0700
From: Dan Vie <danvie-AT-lightspeed.ca>
Subject: Re: [Puptcrit] puppetry for infants
To: <puptcrit-AT-lists.driftline.org>
Message-ID: <20060614070450.0B0ED1BB50-AT-che.dreamhost.com>


Just had a look at the Baby Einstein videos.  You know,
the ones to stimulate brain development, etc.  This tape
is rated for Ages 0 - 3.  How an infant can be age 0 I don't
understand... Well, surprise!  It's nothing but an extended series 
of very short vignettes - puppets and toys of all kinds, telling
very quick and SIMPLE visual stories, or flashing lights and colors, 
then on to the next unrelated vignette. All backed by fancy music,
of course.  Not so different from Sesame Street, but with even
shorter segments. Suited to the short human attention span?

Dan Vie
Vancouver, BC

>Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2006 23:12:36 EDT
>From: WhatanExpression-AT-aol.com
>Subject: Re: [Puptcrit] puptcrit Digest, Vol 20, Issue 17
>To: puptcrit-AT-lists.driftline.org
 
>In a message dated 6/11/2006 2:45:49 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,  
>puptcrit-request-AT-lists.driftline.org writes:
>
>Does  anyone want to perform for this age range? What would you do for 
>the  newborn to 2 year olds? Somebody give me a viable scenario that 
>would  convince me that I am wrong about this. I would entertain the 
>idea of  playing with puppets with this set and maybe even doing a very 
>simple  little something, but could anyone do a show? A newborn can't 
>even focus  that far away yet.
>
>
>
>I have done shows at daycare centers. I have gone into the "infant  room" 
>(ages 6 weeks to 18 months) and sang simple songs with the puppets. The  
>first 
>time i did it I was very taken back by the reaction the puppets received  
>Even 
>some 3 or 4 month olds were laughing and cooing. I'm sure it was to the  
>music 
>and brightly colored puppets that caused the reactions. The daycare was so  
>pleased that I included the infants, and went on and on about how the 
>babies  
>enjoyed the show. I was only in the room maybe 5 minutes.
> 
>_Alice in central NY_ (http://www.whatanexpression.etsy.com/)  
>www.whatanexpression.etsy.com 
 


------------------------------

Message: 2
Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2006 19:29:43 +1000
From: "Kismet" <kismet-AT-bigpond.net.au>
Subject: Re: [Puptcrit] Marketing Puppet Shows
To: <puptcrit-AT-lists.driftline.org>
Message-ID: <04aa01c68f95$11bf0bf0$0100000a-AT-brainlesstwit>
	reply-type=original


And Vincent van Gogh, whose paintings remain eminently popular, was so 
market-savy that he sold ONE PAINTING in his lifetime......He was so excited 
by the sale that he GAVE the painting to the intending purchaser for 
nothing......He did have the advantage of a generous and supportive 
brother.......

This whole debate makes me realise just how bad things are in the States, no 
it makes me sick....and sad...... Its like watching the last of the great 
lemmings run into the flames....while the boy king fiddles. Sadly our 
country is intent on staggering after you.
The end of PBS (and our equivalents the ABC and SBS) means the end of 
honesty, the end of accountability in the media, the end of free 
speech.......the end of our freedom.
As to marketable Art....Where is the innovation? where is the risk? the 
exploration? How can art addressing sensative and perhaps unpopular issues 
meet the demands of the Pop market. Art for the popular market isnt art, it 
is decoration, it is frivalous and easily replaced by video's from Tiawan. 
This is why your Symphony/Opera Companies get funded as great institutions 
and not your Puppet companies...because they are happy with commercial 
mediocrity not Art.
And so our great empire...the Empire of the COW crumbles...... Hopefully the 
end will come quickly and mercifully for us eh? Perhaps our allies will 
relieve our suffering with a sudden bullet to the head, like the end of a 
faithful old farm horse. More likely it will be the last act of the deluded 
boy King...the anti-christ incarnate sending us all to be seated at the 
right hand of the father.....as long as we are white, wealthy and realise 
that the ten commandments only applied to the "others"....OH! hang on! Thats 
NOT what it says in the bible is it? Im confused............

Daniel 



------------------------------

Message: 3
Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2006 06:55:33 -0400
From: Christopher Hudert <heyhoot-AT-mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: [Puptcrit] puppetry for infants
To: puptcrit-AT-lists.driftline.org
Message-ID: <4D9B3CE6-FB94-11DA-B4C7-003065AB1E0A-AT-mindspring.com>

On Jun 14, 2006, at 3:04 AM, Dan Vie wrote:

> Just had a look at the Baby Einstein videos.  You know, the ones to 
> stimulate brain development, etc.  This tape
> is rated for Ages 0 - 3.  How an infant can be age 0 I don't 
> understand...
Again, this is TV/video. Not at all the same thing. And if you look at 
these tapes again, some are recommended for 0 - 3 years, others for 9 
mths to 3 years, and so on. None are 0 to 5 years, which is what the 
original post was asking for.

> Well, surprise!  It's nothing but an extended series of very short 
> vignettes - puppets and toys of all kinds, telling very quick and 
> SIMPLE visual stories, or flashing lights and colors, then on to the 
> next unrelated vignette. All backed by fancy music,
> of course.  Not so different from Sesame Street, but with even shorter 
> segments. Suited to the short human attention span?
   VERY different than Sesame Street. While SS has some short segments 
that are purely visually based, it is mostly a language based show 
geared for kids 18 months or so and older, up through pre-school or 
kindergarten. Other than a couple of their tapes, Baby Einstein is 
entirely visual and music based (learning through stimulation of music 
patterns and so on). While SS does cover a fairly wide very young 
audience, it is in the home on the TV, not in any kind of venue be it 
store, theater, mall, library or what have you.
  As to the attention span, both of these learning based programs work 
toward the repetitiveness not the short attention span. At the age they 
are aimed at there is a relatively low ability to follow a long story 
line, but it develops as the kids get older. Kids follow the show as a 
whole, which has a couple of themes woven throughout, and they follow 
the themes - "SS is brought to you today by the letter X and the number 
8."

  My question and argument still stands.

Christopher



------------------------------

Message: 4
Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2006 07:07:50 -0400
From: Christopher Hudert <heyhoot-AT-mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: [Puptcrit] puptcrit Digest, Vol 20, Issue 17
To: puptcrit-AT-lists.driftline.org
Message-ID: <0492A510-FB96-11DA-B4C7-003065AB1E0A-AT-mindspring.com>


On Jun 13, 2006, at 11:12 PM, WhatanExpression-AT-aol.com wrote:

> In a message dated 6/11/2006 2:45:49 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,
> puptcrit-request-AT-lists.driftline.org writes:
>
> Does  anyone want to perform for this age range? What would you do for
> the  newborn to 2 year olds? Somebody give me a viable scenario that
> would  convince me that I am wrong about this. I would entertain the
> idea of  playing with puppets with this set and maybe even doing a very
> simple  little something, but could anyone do a show? A newborn can't
> even focus  that far away yet.
>
>
> I have done shows at daycare centers. I have gone into the "infant  
> room"
> (ages 6 weeks to 18 months) and sang simple songs with the puppets. 
> The first
> time I did it I was very taken back by the reaction the puppets 
> received  Even
> some 3 or 4 month olds were laughing and cooing. I'm sure it was to 
> the  music
> and brightly colored puppets that caused the reactions. The daycare 
> was so
> pleased that I included the infants, and went on and on about how the 
> babies
> enjoyed the show. I was only in the room maybe 5 minutes.
>
> _Alice in central NY_

Yes, but this was not a show. You were doing exactly what I said - a 
simple little something, playing, interacting. You could say you were 
performing, but I would argue that this performance was interacting and 
not a show, per say, and that is what the question was. What sort of 
SHOW would one do for newborn to 2 years old? Remember, this show also 
has to entertain the 3 - 5 year olds and their parents. The idea 
implied by the original post was for a stage worthy performance for 
newborn to 5 year olds, a show, not a one on one (or one on a few) 
roving interactive entertainment.

Christopher


------------------------------

Message: 5
Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2006 07:40:25 -0400
From: Christopher Hudert <heyhoot-AT-mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: [Puptcrit] Puppeteers for Young Ones
To: puptcrit-AT-lists.driftline.org
Message-ID: <9217445A-FB9A-11DA-B4C7-003065AB1E0A-AT-mindspring.com>

On Jun 11, 2006, at 11:35 AM, Susan Wall Kronenberg wrote:

> Gee, Christopher, do you ever THINK before going on like this?
Gee, Susan, yes I do. And I hold to what I said, but perhaps with some 
more info, though I didn't want to go on and on.

>  Obviously Potter Barn for Kids caters to *families* with young kids - 
> newborns to 5 years old.  Do you think that mom and dad are
> going to leave their kids to watch a show while they go shopping?  No! 
>  They're going to be right there with the kids!  And afterwards, 
> they're going to ask you if you do birthday parties.  And YES, I also 
> do birthday parties!  Yesterday I made close to $1000 doing birthday 
> parties.  And afterwards I had the parents and grandparents coming up 
> to me, saying that they really liked the performance.  You see, it's 
> not just the kids watching.
   I am well aware that it is not just the kids watching my shows. 
That's why my shows are written to several levels. Which, in part, is 
why they are successful. Numerous times I have parents and grandparents 
come up to me saying not only that they really liked the performance, 
but, in some cases, that they were moved by it. Yes, I am going to 
entertain them, but often that entertainment will be more than eye 
candy. I want them to become emotionally as well as mentally involved. 
I want them to laugh, to worry, to be relieved, to be scared, to laugh 
some more, to be moved and maybe even to cry when I want them to and 
all for the right reasons as part of the entertainment. Not likely to 
happen in a variety show. That is not to dis the variety show, it is 
only saying that it has a different purpose and place, and not what I 
prefer to do at this time. (FWIW, I do have a variety show in the 
pipeline.)
  As I briefly mentioned in my original post, no slight was intended to 
those who cater to the pre-K and/or Birthday party market. I do not do 
variety shows. I have done variety shows and they are good for many of 
the markets that you and others play to, but at present I don't care to 
do them and I do not find them particularly gratifying. I rarely do 
birthday parties, malls, pre-schools, or the like. Yes, they can be 
good for the wallet, but my shows are not intended or designed for that 
market. Yes, the money they would generate certainly would help pay the 
bills, but at this point I care less about the income that would be 
derived than what I would have to do and put up with to make that 
money. Not my cup of tea, you are welcome to drink all you wish with no 
competition from me.
   The parents are going to be right there with them? Perhaps, and in 
most instances yes. But there is also a trend these days in more 
upscale stores to have a "drop zone" where the kids are left while the 
parents shop (or as some places are finding out, go off to do other 
stuff). I, personally, don't want to be one of many distractions in 
this zone. Call me crazy, but I want an audience for my show that isn't 
running several places at once and this has nothing to do with the 
quality of the show. It has to do with what the zone is set up for. 
Again, even if the parents are there it is likely that less than 1% of 
them would hire me to do a show at a theater, school, museum, library, 
etc. because they are not in a position to do so. No, I really don't 
want to do your 3 year olds birthday party, but I can refer you to 
someone who would. I do that all of the time. For me, this is not 
likely to be a gig that is a stepping stone to other gigs that I would 
want to do.

> So, all in all, I think it would be a pretty good gig.  I have emailed 
> Christine and hope she gets back to me.
   Great. It may work out to be a very good gig with a long profitable 
relationship. I hope it works out well for you and all of the others 
who contact her who feel this is right for them.

On Jun 11, 2006, at 1:31 PM, Mark S. Segal wrote:

> Susan,
> I am sorry but I have to agree whole heartedly with Christopher.
  Mark, you're sorry you have to agree with me, or did you leave out the 
coma after "sorry"? (for those who don't know, Mark and I enjoy ribbing 
each other so this is a bit of an inside joke.)

> <clip>You make a very good point... but then why not ask for 3-5 year 
> olds???
   That, too, was part of my point. This is cognitively too wide of an 
age range. It has been a long time since my education training but that 
IS part of my background. I do recall some of it though and newborn to 
5 is too wide of a range to affectively engage all at one time with the 
same material. The type of things, the pace, etc. are vastly different 
for a newborn than for a 5 year old.

On Jun 11, 2006, at 8:53 PM, Mary Horsley wrote:

> Don't limit what a baby can respond to....as an educator I am well 
> aware of
> how much more babies and toddlers take in then we think they are 
> capable
> of. I think the age suggestion just has a lot to do with the ages of 
> the
> store. If a puppeteer aims toward the 4-5 age bracket, the others will 
> be
> pleasantly amused by the colors, actions, and sounds of the puppets. 
> Also,
> just remember, whatever they see is adding to their personal 
> experiences of
> live puppets and theatre. There are older children who have never had 
> the
> chance to see live puppetry. If I had the time, like Susan, and loving
> young children, I would jump at the chance to do such a gig.
>
> Mary
  I am no Einstein (Baby or otherwise), but I am pretty attuned to what 
babies and toddlers take in. I have been around children most of my 
life and have two little ones of my own. I was also a Theater Education 
major in College (triple certification - English, Speech, and Theater, 
K - 12). I know you can entertain the under 5 set and they can benefit 
from it, but the kind of things that I believe they are best suited for 
and are best suited for them are not in most puppet shows that I want 
to do. That being said, many of my shows will and do captivate children 
in the 0 - 5 age range. But they are part of, not the bulk of, my 
audience and the show is not geared to them.
  Yes, having children exposed to live theater and puppetry at a young 
age is nice - in the right set of circumstances and environments. 
Perhaps this gig is even the right set, but it does not sound like it 
to me, and it definitely is not my set . And no one, as of this 
writing, has put forth a scenario for a show geared for this full age 
range. Susan came closest, but even that was geared to the 3 - 5 and 
"the 0-2 crowd might not get much out of the show, but they may enjoy 
the music and movement".

Christopher





>
> At 12:10 AM 6/11/2006, you wrote:
>>    I'm saving this one for whenever I need a god laugh. Puppeteers for
>> newborns?!? Sorry, I only do Shakespeare for prenatal and birthing
>> babies. Bob Nathanson, are you available for this? Sounds like a tour.
>> 91 stores in three days.
>>    Sheesh, I mean no offense to those who do shows for preschools and
>> such, but NEWBORNS? On purpose? Yes they'll bring them to your show no
>> matter what you say, but really. Newborns? I guess she got it right
>> when she said "performing TO young children." There is no way you 
>> could
>> do a show FOR newborns. You could do stuff for/ to them one on one,
>> bright colors, movements, and so on but I just can't get over this.
>> Personally I can't think of many a worse gig than this.
>>    Then again if you just looked at it as paid rehearsals for a parade
>> of puppets, it would pay the rent I suppose.
>>
>>   Does anyone want to perform for this age range? What would you do 
>> for
>> the newborn to 2 year olds? Somebody give me a viable scenario that
>> would convince me that I am wrong about this. I would entertain the
>> idea of playing with puppets with this set and maybe even doing a very
>> simple little something, but could anyone do a show? A newborn can't
>> even focus that far away yet.
>>
>>   Arrrrrgh, must stop, this is crumbling my brain.
>>
>>
>>
>> On Jun 10, 2006, at 3:32 AM, Andrew Kim wrote:
>>
>>> Just forwarding this call I got to the list.  --Andrew Kim
>>>
>>> Begin forwarded message:
>>>
>>> Hello,
>>>
>>> My name is Christine Tjon and I am an associate in the Pottery Barn
>>> Kids Brand Marketing team. Pottery Barn Kids is putting together the
>>> first 91stores, nationwide in-store puppeteer event starting this
>>> November  (11/7-9).
>>>
>>> Currently, I am looking for puppeteers that are interested in
>>> performing to young children, ranging from ages newborn to 5 years
>>> old.
>>> If you have artists who are interested in contacting me for
>>> information, please have them call me at 415-402-4828 or email me at
>>> ctjon-AT-wsgc.com.
>>>
>>> Company website:  www.potterybarnkids.com
>>>
>>> Thank you.
>>>
>>> Christine Tjon
>>>
>>> Christine Tjon
>>> Pottery Barn Kids / Brand Marketing
>>> (415) 402-4828 - Office
>>> (415) 439-1250 - Fax
>>> _______________________________________________
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>>> Archives: http://www.driftline.org
>>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
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>



------------------------------

Message: 6
Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2006 06:29:12 -0400
From: Christopher Hudert <heyhoot-AT-mindspring.com>
Subject: [Puptcrit] More on Puppeteers for Young Ones
To: puptcrit-AT-lists.driftline.org
Message-ID: <9F07A88C-FB90-11DA-B4C7-003065AB1E0A-AT-mindspring.com>

On Jun 11, 2006, at 11:32 PM, Susan Wall Kronenberg wrote:

> What I am trying to say is that I would not turn the job down just 
> because the client, at this point, says the show is for newborns to 5. 
>   Why include the 0-2's?  Because the point of the puppet show, in 
> this case, is to bring people into the store.
    Possibly, even likely. But it is also possible that it is an added 
attraction (distraction?) for while they are already going to be there.

>  Part of our job is to educate the client. We can tell them that the 
> 0-2 crowd might not get much out of the show, but they may enjoy the 
> music and movement.
That is usually part of the job, but it is also and more so, part of 
the job to find out what the client wants and deliver it. If this is 
what she wants, a show for the 0 to 5 set, than that is what you should 
be delivering, NOT a show for the 3 - 5 set that half of her intended 
audience "might not get much out of".

>  I really don't think this person from Pottery Barn is saying she 
> wants a show designed for the very young.
  Funny, I think this person said exactly that in no uncertain terms.
>  And our job is to convince the client that she wants a show for all 
> ages.
   No, you may ask me (the client) questions to see if I am expressing 
well what I want. But if I know I want oranges don't try to sell me 
apples even if they are colored orange.

> I, too, have been puppeteering for a long time -- close to 30 years.  
> I specialize in variety shows featuring marionettes and hand
> puppets (I also have a couple of story shows, but these don't get 
> booked as much as the variety shows).  <clip>  I do not compromise in 
> the quality of my puppeteering just because my target audience is 
> young.  I know there'll be older eyes watching as well.  I just start 
> to take offence when others in our profession think they can get away 
> with a "paid rehearsal" when performing for young kids.  It's people 
> like that who give puppeteers a bad name.  Susan, I find your 
> implication here highly insulting. Are really saying that I give 
> puppetry a bad name? Please tell me I am reading this wrong. If I am 
> not, we either have more divergent views of our performances than I 
> thought, you have never seen one of my shows, or you don't get my 
> philosophy on performing. I have never "phoned in" a performance and I 
> have been doing shows for over 40 years for audiences ranging from a 
> few to over 10 thousand. I think that when someone is doing a show for 
> an audience they should be doing the show no matter how many or few 
> people are there, no matter what they may feel like emotionally or 
> physically, no matter what the conditions, etc., and giving it the 
> best they can no matter how large or small their part may be.
  Perhaps you were mislead by my reference to a "paid rehearsal." I did 
not mean to imply that the show was lesser in some way, but that your 
expectation as a performer needed to be different. A rehearsal 
audience, with some exceptions, does not give back to the performance 
in the same way that a regular audience does. Part of it has to do with 
numbers, part of it has to do with why they are there, but the dynamic 
is not and can not be the same. However, if you are getting paid to do 
the performance (and in some cases even if you are not, but that is a 
different thread), you are, IMHO, under an obligation to do a quality 
show regardless of how the audience is reacting - or in the case of a 2 
month old, not reacting. To me, if my audience is incapable of giving 
appropriate responses I am going to do the best show I can, but it is 
going to be a "paid rehearsal." Have you ever done a show for a room 
full of special needs people as your sole audience (other than their 
caretakers)? I have many times, and I have to work harder during that 
"paid rehearsal" show than at a regular show. It takes more 
concentration and different pacing and so on, but it is not  a lesser 
show in the term of my performance. It is in no way, shape, or form a 
walk through. However, they can not and will not give back the way my 
typical audience can and will, so I refer to it as a "paid rehearsal."

> (We saw a puppet show at a party.  It was terrible.  We would never 
> hire another puppeteer after that!)
  Perhaps it was bad, or perhaps it was a decent (or better) show done 
totally in the wrong place for the wrong audience, which is just as bad 
in some ways. But was that because the performer couldn't say "no" or 
because the performer "educated" the client into a show that was not 
appropriate for the audience that was going to be there?

> Pre-school aged kids are the hardest audience for which anyone can 
> perform (with the exception
> of Middle School kids, but let's not go there ;-) ).  But there are 
> some of us who do it (she says modestly) rather well.
  And there are those of us (he says unashamedly) who chose not to for 
various reasons.

Christopher



------------------------------

Message: 7
Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2006 06:32:20 -0400
From: Christopher Hudert <heyhoot-AT-mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: [Puptcrit] Call for Puppeteers for Young Ones
To: puptcrit-AT-lists.driftline.org
Message-ID: <0F3F582C-FB91-11DA-B4C7-003065AB1E0A-AT-mindspring.com>

> At 05:53 PM 6/11/2006, Mary Horsley wrote:
>
>> Don't limit what a baby can respond to....as an educator I am well 
>> aware of how much more babies and toddlers take in then we think they 
>> are capable of.
On Jun 12, 2006, at 12:00 AM, Steve Axtell wrote:

> I heard in some news release a few months ago that Henson is producing 
> a new show for Newborns also.
>
> Ax

This is video/TV, something totally different than what we were talking 
about.

Christopher



------------------------------

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