File puptcrit/puptcrit.0606, message 83


Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2006 15:30:48 -0400
To: puptcrit-AT-lists.driftline.org
Subject: [Puptcrit] Neoprene


Just to put my experience with Neoprene on file.  I have used Neoprene for close to 20 years and still have my first mask.  no deterioration at all.  Possibly because I mix two grades .???  any questions about my process, please write.
     Larry Hunt---Masque Theatre---www.masque-hunt.org 
 
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Subject: puptcrit Digest, Vol 20, Issue 9


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Today's Topics:

   1. Re: Marionette Stringing advice? (R3~)
   2. Re: Marionette Stringing advice? (Christopher Hudert)
   3. Re: Marionette Stringing advice? (Sandy Barton)
   4. The Secret of Making Marionettes (Popular Mechanics   Article)
      (Andrew)
   5. Re: The Secret of Making Marionettes (Popular Mechanics
      Article) (Angusson-AT-aol.com)
   6. Re: composition casting (Mathieu Ren?)
   7. Re: composition casting (Christopher Hudert)
   8. Re: Marionette Stringing advice? (Mathieu Ren?)
   9. Plastalina Quick Fix (Mathieu Ren?)
  10. Re: Plastalina Quick Fix (Robert Rogers)
  11. Re: Plastalina Quick Fix (Mathieu Ren?)
  12. Re: Marionette Stringing advice? (Gregory Ballora)


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message: 1
Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2006 13:27:06 -0700
From: R3~ <radius11-AT-covad.net>
Subject: Re: [Puptcrit] Marionette Stringing advice?
To: puptcrit-AT-lists.driftline.org
Message-ID: <4484939A.4030702-AT-covad.net>

A magnet in the body part and LOTS of magnetic paint on the strings?

Sorry, just occurred to me, and I didn't have the sense to stop it.  ;)

R~

Mathieu Ren? wrote:

>Hi all.
>My movie puppets are coming along fine.
>
>I have no pictures to show yet, but as soon as the bodies are made of the final 
materials, I think I can find the time to take some pics.
>
>I am already thinking about how to attach the strings.
>
>Can anyone offer advice on how to attach strings and still offer the option to 
remove/replace them?
>
>I really don't want to use eyelets this time. I usually make my own, to be more 
subtle, and avoid gloss.
>But for this time, they are just too much work, as each time I need to attach a 
string, there is knotting, and applying of glue.
>
>I keep watching and pausing the Strings movie, but cannot guess how they 
attached their strings. It looks so clean, and I can't see any opposite hole to 
have access inside each strung part. Each string looks a bit stiffer at the 
attaching point, so maybe they made the ends rigid, or embedded some sort of 
hook or loop in their strands?
>
>Any idea?
>
>Thanks in Advance.
>
>
>
>
>Mathieu Ren? Cr?aturiste
>Marionnettes, Masques, Etcetera...
>Puppets, Masks, Etcetera...
>www.creaturiste.com
>creaturiste-AT-magma.ca
>(514) 274-8027
>_______________________________________________
>List address: puptcrit-AT-lists.driftline.org
>Admin interface: http://lists.driftline.org/listinfo.cgi/puptcrit-driftline.org
>Archives: http://www.driftline.org
>
>
>.
>
>  
>


------------------------------

Message: 2
Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2006 17:53:12 -0400
From: Christopher Hudert <heyhoot-AT-mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: [Puptcrit] Marionette Stringing advice?
To: puptcrit-AT-lists.driftline.org
Message-ID: <AF6BAB9E-F4DD-11DA-9214-003065AB1E0A-AT-mindspring.com>


On Jun 5, 2006, at 1:05 PM, Gregory Ballora wrote:

> No, the wire I am talking about is hardened spring
> steel. I really don't know why it is called "music
> wire", since I have never seen an instrument that uses it.

FWIW - Um, isn't this piano wire? That stuff they use to make the music 
on a piano? I believe there was a long discussion about how to and how 
not to bend this kind of wire on this list about 9 months ago.
Yes, it is also used for springs, thus the name spring wire. It is the 
kind of spring like on a clothes pin.
This is different than what many people call spring steel which is flat 
and used to be used to hold loads on pallets for shipping. Now they 
mostly use plastic strap (which is good stuff for the inside of the 
lower hem of a hand puppet - if you find the heavy stuff) or plastic 
film.




------------------------------

Message: 3
Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2006 22:54:35 -0400
From: Sandy Barton <sandbar-AT-wowway.com>
Subject: Re: [Puptcrit] Marionette Stringing advice?
To: puptcrit-AT-lists.driftline.org
Message-ID: <4484EE6B.4090105-AT-wowway.com>

Christopher Hudert wrote:

>FWIW - Um, isn't this piano wire? That stuff they use to make the music 
>on a piano? 
>
Okay, but I'm not cannibalizing my piano just now. I do live with 
guitarists, however, and I'm always finding guitar strings lying about. 
Just thinking of ways to recycle. <G>

>Now they 
>mostly use plastic strap (which is good stuff for the inside of the 
>lower hem of a hand puppet - if you find the heavy stuff) or plastic 
>film.
>  
>
I've been saving this stuff from work, knowing that I could use them in 
puppets somehow. The hem of a hand puppet is a great idea. Thanks!

Sandy


------------------------------

Message: 4
Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2006 22:27:05 -0500
From: Andrew <puppetvision-AT-gmail.com>
Subject: [Puptcrit] The Secret of Making Marionettes (Popular
    Mechanics   Article)
To: puptcrit-AT-lists.driftline.org
Message-ID:
    <30657e0d0606052027n22f25b69h4f857c9bafe7d157-AT-mail.gmail.com>

I thought some of you here who are interested in marionettes might be
interested in this...a 1934 Popular Mechanics article entitled "The
Secret of Making Marionettes" -
http://blog.modernmechanix.com/2006/06/03/the-secrets-of-making-marionettes/

Enjoy!


-- 

The PuppetVision Blog
"The web's best source for puppet film and video goodness, delivered
fresh to your computer each day."
http://puppetvision.blogspot.com


------------------------------

Message: 5
Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2006 00:42:21 EDT
From: Angusson-AT-aol.com
Subject: Re: [Puptcrit] The Secret of Making Marionettes (Popular
    Mechanics   Article)
To: puptcrit-AT-lists.driftline.org
Message-ID: <438.2947a2b.31b661ad-AT-aol.com>

Thanks for posting this article.
This came out right after Rufus and Margo Rose's success at the 1933 Chicago 
World's Fair. They were hired by Tony Sarg to operate the 'A&P Carnival' 
sponsored by the Great Atlantic and Pacific Tea Company,' which became the A&P 
super markets we know today.
While the show was ostensibly Tony's production, it really became the Rose's 
show, since Tony was swamped with other work at the fair.

The Roses had worked for Sarg in the late '20s and then went off on their own 
to form 'The Rufus Rose Marionettes.'   Tony called them to work on the fair 
show at a time when their own bookings were in doubt.

Bil Baird also worked on a few of the marionettes used in the fair show.
Great memories.

Fred T. 


> I thought some of you here who are interested in marionettes might be
> interested in this...a 1934 Popular Mechanics article entitled "The
> Secret of Making Marionettes" -
> http://blog.modernmechanix.com/2006/06/03/the-secrets-of-making-marionettes/
> 
> Enjoy!
> 
> 



------------------------------

Message: 6
Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2006 01:11:14 -0400
From: Mathieu Ren? <creaturiste-AT-magma.ca>
Subject: Re: [Puptcrit] composition casting
To: <puptcrit-AT-lists.driftline.org>
Message-ID: <006d01c68928$187d7490$8a34f3c7-AT-critter1>
    reply-type=original

Hi Dan.
The composition slip you are refering to is probably Neoprene.

If you want to see it used extensively for masks, see:
www.goblinart.com.
The head goblin, Monica J. Roxburg learned the base technique years ago from
one of the maskmakers who worked on the movie Labyrinth.


Neoprene is strong and flexible but has a very limited lifespan.
It is susceptible to UV rays, human sweat, and it can be torn. Sugar acts
like an acid on it.
I'm not trying to put it down, it's still is an awesome material, as I have
seen the results many times.
I even owned one of those neoprene masks, which is still good looking after
over 4 years on my shelf, as I never really wore it. I recently donated it
to a local theatre I work with often. Judging by the state of their masks
from the same line, it should not last more than two years of regular use on
the stage.
most of their masks suffer from color scrathcing away, sweat dmage inside,
and lots have tears already.
I tried to fix one using latex, but one sees how ephemeral this will be.
The neoprene that has become tacky will only continue this process until
there is no useable mask left.

Neoprene I would use for TV productions that don't need the mask once the 
series or show is done and reccorded on film. But for anything that should 
last over 5 years, I'd make another choice of material.
Keeping the original molds in a safe place will enable the show to start 
again when a mask becomes unusable.


I wonder if a silicone could be used to make a permanent mask?
Something like Rebound 25, by smooth-on?
Or something a bit stiffer?
Silicone is not supposed to age, i was told.
I can't know for sure, I was only told and there was no other reference to 
that.




Mathieu Ren? Cr?aturiste
Marionnettes, Masques, Etcetera...
Puppets, Masks, Etcetera...
www.creaturiste.com
creaturiste-AT-magma.ca
(514) 274-8027 



------------------------------

Message: 7
Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2006 01:39:22 -0400
From: Christopher Hudert <heyhoot-AT-mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: [Puptcrit] composition casting
To: puptcrit-AT-lists.driftline.org
Message-ID: <CE72E3B0-F51E-11DA-B39E-003065AB1E0A-AT-mindspring.com>


On Jun 6, 2006, at 1:11 AM, Mathieu Ren? wrote:

> The composition slip you are refering to is probably Neoprene.
> <clip>
> Neoprene is strong and flexible but has a very limited lifespan.
> It is susceptible to UV rays, human sweat, and it can be torn. Sugar 
> acts
> like an acid on it.
> ...
> I even owned one of those neoprene masks, which is still good looking 
> after
> over 4 years on my shelf, as I never really wore it. I recently 
> donated it
> to a local theatre I work with often. Judging by the state of their 
> masks
> from the same line, it should not last more than two years of regular 
> use on
> the stage. Most of their masks suffer from color scratching away, 
> sweat dmage inside,
> and lots have tears already.
> I tried to fix one using latex, but one sees how ephemeral this will 
> be.
> The neoprene that has become tacky will only continue this process 
> until
> there is no useable mask left.
>
> Neoprene I would use for TV productions that don't need the mask once 
> the
> series or show is done and reccorded on film. But for anything that 
> should
> last over 5 years, I'd make another choice of material.
> Keeping the original molds in a safe place will enable the show to 
> start
> again when a mask becomes unusable.

Interesting. I made neoprene monkey masks (as well as heads and feet 
for the monkey puppets and almost all of the other characters) for 
Jungle Book. That was in 1994, I believe. The majority of the masks and 
puppets are in good condition to this day. No they are not used daily, 
but have seen a pretty good amount of use and a fair share of abuse 
over the years. Although this is not a show that sees regular 
performances (too large for us) I also have other puppets that are used 
regularly that are made of neoprene. They are in good condition as 
well, most well over your 5 year limit.
  I don't have as much experience with masks as I do puppets, but if I 
were to want a neoprene mask to last a long time I would a) paint the 
inside to protect it from UV, sweat, and body sugars, b) I might also 
line the inside with fabric or a foam that would help sit it ever so 
slightly away from the face, c) see that it was taken care of. Seems to 
me that these steps would allow a neoprene mask to last as long as, or 
longer than, most other mask materials.

c



------------------------------

Message: 8
Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2006 01:57:26 -0400
From: Mathieu Ren? <creaturiste-AT-magma.ca>
Subject: Re: [Puptcrit] Marionette Stringing advice?
To: <puptcrit-AT-lists.driftline.org>
Message-ID: <00a401c6892e$1e5c3c60$8a34f3c7-AT-critter1>
    reply-type=original

I want to thank everyone who offered advice and techniques on stringing.
They are all much appreciated and I am learning a lot from them!

Keep them coming, if you have them.
That article about Making marionnettes shall be preciously archived in my 
files!
For those who want tos ave it, make sure you click on ecery single big 
picture and wait for the reall size picture to load. it is BIG on the 
screen, but will print better on a printer, if you print from a paint 
program such as Photoshop or Paint shop pro.

Thanks Andrew for posting it!


Mathieu Ren? Cr?aturiste
Marionnettes, Masques, Etcetera...
Puppets, Masks, Etcetera...
www.creaturiste.com
creaturiste-AT-magma.ca
(514) 274-8027 



------------------------------

Message: 9
Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2006 02:35:19 -0400
From: Mathieu Ren? <creaturiste-AT-magma.ca>
Subject: [Puptcrit] Plastalina Quick Fix
To: <puptcrit-AT-lists.driftline.org>
Message-ID: <00af01c68933$62d4d2d0$8a34f3c7-AT-critter1>

I have been using cheap plastalina (namely, Giotto Pongo, a modeling clay for 
kids, which I bought because that's all I could afford in bulk, and because it 
felt as close to Plastalina as I could find.

Like plastalina, it can be influenced by heat, becoming softer as it is getting 
hotter.
The Giotto stuff is VERY sensitive to heat. Hard to work with the hands in the 
winter (but awesome for detail work wih a tool), and ahrdto control in the 
summer, as it gets too soft.
Tonight I was refining my puppet's heads, and deciced to test something I had 
read about and briefly tested months ago: freezing the stuff.
It worked like a charm.

The whole puppet model was put in the freezer for an hour, and when I took it 
ot, it was firm and cold.
Not cold enough to give anyone any frostbite, mind you.
If you keep your hand away from the sculpt and use metal tools, the firmness 
will last a while.
I was able to really detail and smooth everything like never before.
My detail tools really became detail tools!
I was able to finally control those delicate nose  and eye shapes!

This should work with "real" plastalina. Same principles.
So far and from mny experiences, all properties of Plastalina are also posessed 
by the Giotto, except for heat stability and resistance to oil leeching. The 
Giotto Pongo cannnot be left for any extended period of time on a  plaster form, 
as the oils on the clay will  be leeched by the plaster. This will make a thick 
layer of palster into something stiff and brittle. It can be saved by re-melting 
on a double boiloer and adding some mineral oil (heavy body). Only a little oil 
at a time, mix very well, and take a spoonful of it, cool it completely, and 
test its texture and hardness. This is the only way to know if the reconditioned 
clay is the right stiffness level.
When hot, it will always be softer.
 
The leeching problem is much less of a probloem with the small quantity of 
Chavant Lebeautouch? plastalina I have.


The freezing has the advantage that it does not apprently change the recipe of 
the clay, and it will come back to normal softness as it thaws.

There is a bonus feature!
There is sweat on the sculpt, either from actual trapped moisture coming out to 
the surface, or from condensation, but whiechever the cause, this is a welcome 
bonus. It can serve as a lubricant!

Use a sharp loop tool to shave off excess texture, and make you sculpt as smooth 
as porcelain!
Keep the shavings, and prevent them from hitting the floor. They stick 
everywhere.
Squish them into a ball as you go.


Note to the pros who only swear by the real stuff and wonder why I went the 
cheap way this time:
No need to get into details, but when one needs to work even more to get his 
break one day, he uses what he can afford for the minimum quantity required.  Or 
actually in the Giotto case, what the previous maskmaking project was able to 
pay for. The Giotto Pongo clay works very well under the right conditions.
It takes about 20 mionutes to modifiy the recipe in a double boiler. Even when 
brannd new, I can add more oil, blend clay colors together to get my better gray 
color, and soon I may try adding some carnauba wax to raise the melting point a 
bit higher.











Mathieu Ren? Cr?aturiste
Marionnettes, Masques, Etcetera...
Puppets, Masks, Etcetera...
www.creaturiste.com
creaturiste-AT-magma.ca
(514) 274-8027

------------------------------

Message: 10
Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2006 08:51:22 -0400
From: "Robert Rogers" <robertrogers-AT-frontiernet.net>
Subject: Re: [Puptcrit] Plastalina Quick Fix
To: <puptcrit-AT-lists.driftline.org>
Message-ID: <000c01c68967$eb807920$88d4d7aa-AT-puppet>
    reply-type=original

>I have been using cheap plastalina (namely, Giotto Pongo, a modeling clay 
>for kids...
>Like plastalina, it can be influenced by heat...

Whatever you do, if you are trying to soften your oil based clay, say during 
the colder months, keep it away from any strong heat source (an oven, 
radiator or space heater).  It is extremely flammable and burns with a 
putrid smell.  Believe me, I know.  When I was younger and didn't know 
better, I made that dreadful mistake!

Robert Rogers
www.robertrogerspuppets.com 



------------------------------

Message: 11
Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2006 11:31:19 -0400
From: Mathieu Ren? <creaturiste-AT-magma.ca>
Subject: Re: [Puptcrit] Plastalina Quick Fix
To: <puptcrit-AT-lists.driftline.org>
Message-ID: <003601c6897e$436efe70$4234f3c7-AT-critter1>
    reply-type=original

Thanks Roger.
I am always carefeul with flammables.
I use a lightbulb to keep the clay soft in the winter, and not a very strong 
one at that.


Mathieu Ren? Cr?aturiste
Marionnettes, Masques, Etcetera...
Puppets, Masks, Etcetera...
www.creaturiste.com
creaturiste-AT-magma.ca
(514) 274-8027 



------------------------------

Message: 12
Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2006 08:40:33 -0700 (PDT)
From: Gregory Ballora <gregballora-AT-sbcglobal.net>
Subject: Re: [Puptcrit] Marionette Stringing advice?
To: puptcrit-AT-lists.driftline.org
Message-ID: <20060606154033.38917.qmail-AT-web82706.mail.mud.yahoo.com>





> Christopher Hudert wrote:
> 
> >FWIW - Um, isn't this piano wire? That stuff they
> use to make the music 
> >on a piano? 

I don't think it is. My memory says that real piano
strings are wrapped, like guitar strings. And I don't
think there is any note on a piano that would require
1/4" solid steel "wire". I will check on my Mommy's
Steinway when I see her next.

Sorry I missed the previous discussion on this
subject.

GB


------------------------------

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