From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Mathieu_Ren=E9?= <creaturiste-AT-magma.ca>
To: <puptcrit-AT-lists.driftline.org>
Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2006 03:19:30 -0400
Subject: Re: [Puptcrit] Neoprene


>Just to put my experience with Neoprene on file.  I have used Neoprene for 
>close to 20 years and still have my first mask.  no deterioration at all. 
>Possibly because I mix two grades .???  any questions about my process, 
>please write.
     Larry Hunt---Masque Theatre---www.masque-hunt.org

---

Cool maks, Larry!
Wow!
to have them last 20 years is not unusual, as long as they are protected 
from UV Rays and harsh substances.

What I said before about neoprene was only for the kind of use I know of.
So,metimes I'm not as clear in text as I wish I were.
Neoprene can be durable, look at diving equipement, when it is well taken 
care of.

The theatre company I deal with that uses them are REALLY hard on their 
neoprene masks. I have been "training" them to behave better and respect 
their masks. I think they get the point, now that some of them paid for 
their own custom-made Commedia masks of paper mache.

Neoprene puppets and accessories have a different stress on them than 
neoprene masks. If they are made to be hard and non-flexible, they should 
last much longer than their hollow, non supported fellows.

There is still a life expenctancy to know about neoprene and all latex-based 
materials. Ask people who worked on the movies The Dark Crystal  and 
Labyrinth. Most of the puppets are long gone, at least tjeir latex skins 
are.
I've heard (or read) people who actually saw some "melted" poddlings in one 
corner of one of the Henson's studios. That must have been so sad!
Of course, once on film, the puppets have done their jobs, so if they melt, 
it's not much of a loss, on a strictly utilitarian approach.

I've read in amny place that neoprene, beiong a latex-based product, can 
last about the same as a latex. I've read about pieces lasting at up to 30 
years!  For most applications, 20 years of life is very good, and much more 
than enough.

Silly me, I am creating in the hopes that my stuff will outlive me by at 
least a hundred years. I guess it is a need to leave a legacy, since I have 
no children.

My materials of choice are paper based for now. Paper mache items, if well 
done, wells ealed, well painted, and well protected, will last for 
centuries. Ask antique specialists.






Mathieu René Créaturiste
Marionnettes, Masques, Etcetera...
Puppets, Masks, Etcetera...
www.creaturiste.com
creaturiste-AT-magma.ca
(514) 274-8027
----- Original Message ----- 
From: <maskwaljh-AT-aol.com>
To: <puptcrit-AT-lists.driftline.org>
Sent: Tuesday, June 06, 2006 3:30 PM
Subject: [Puptcrit] Neoprene


> Just to put my experience with Neoprene on file.  I have used Neoprene for 
> close to 20 years and still have my first mask.  no deterioration at all. 
> Possibly because I mix two grades .???  any questions about my process, 
> please write.
>     Larry Hunt---Masque Theatre---www.masque-hunt.org
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: puptcrit-request-AT-lists.driftline.org
> To: puptcrit-AT-lists.driftline.org
> Sent: Tue, 6 Jun 2006 08:40:39 -0700
> Subject: puptcrit Digest, Vol 20, Issue 9
>
>
> Send puptcrit mailing list submissions to
>    puptcrit-AT-lists.driftline.org
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> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
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>
>
> Today's Topics:
>
>   1. Re: Marionette Stringing advice? (R3~)
>   2. Re: Marionette Stringing advice? (Christopher Hudert)
>   3. Re: Marionette Stringing advice? (Sandy Barton)
>   4. The Secret of Making Marionettes (Popular Mechanics   Article)
>      (Andrew)
>   5. Re: The Secret of Making Marionettes (Popular Mechanics
>      Article) (Angusson-AT-aol.com)
>   6. Re: composition casting (Mathieu Ren?)
>   7. Re: composition casting (Christopher Hudert)
>   8. Re: Marionette Stringing advice? (Mathieu Ren?)
>   9. Plastalina Quick Fix (Mathieu Ren?)
>  10. Re: Plastalina Quick Fix (Robert Rogers)
>  11. Re: Plastalina Quick Fix (Mathieu Ren?)
>  12. Re: Marionette Stringing advice? (Gregory Ballora)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2006 13:27:06 -0700
> From: R3~ <radius11-AT-covad.net>
> Subject: Re: [Puptcrit] Marionette Stringing advice?
> To: puptcrit-AT-lists.driftline.org
> Message-ID: <4484939A.4030702-AT-covad.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed
>
> A magnet in the body part and LOTS of magnetic paint on the strings?
>
> Sorry, just occurred to me, and I didn't have the sense to stop it.  ;)
>
> R~
>
> Mathieu Ren? wrote:
>
>>Hi all.
>>My movie puppets are coming along fine.
>>
>>I have no pictures to show yet, but as soon as the bodies are made of the 
>>final
> materials, I think I can find the time to take some pics.
>>
>>I am already thinking about how to attach the strings.
>>
>>Can anyone offer advice on how to attach strings and still offer the 
>>option to
> remove/replace them?
>>
>>I really don't want to use eyelets this time. I usually make my own, to be 
>>more
> subtle, and avoid gloss.
>>But for this time, they are just too much work, as each time I need to 
>>attach a
> string, there is knotting, and applying of glue.
>>
>>I keep watching and pausing the Strings movie, but cannot guess how they
> attached their strings. It looks so clean, and I can't see any opposite 
> hole to
> have access inside each strung part. Each string looks a bit stiffer at 
> the
> attaching point, so maybe they made the ends rigid, or embedded some sort 
> of
> hook or loop in their strands?
>>
>>Any idea?
>>
>>Thanks in Advance.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>Mathieu Ren? Cr?aturiste
>>Marionnettes, Masques, Etcetera...
>>Puppets, Masks, Etcetera...
>>www.creaturiste.com
>>creaturiste-AT-magma.ca
>>(514) 274-8027
>>_______________________________________________
>>List address: puptcrit-AT-lists.driftline.org
>>Admin interface: 
>>http://lists.driftline.org/listinfo.cgi/puptcrit-driftline.org
>>Archives: http://www.driftline.org
>>
>>
>>.
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2006 17:53:12 -0400
> From: Christopher Hudert <heyhoot-AT-mindspring.com>
> Subject: Re: [Puptcrit] Marionette Stringing advice?
> To: puptcrit-AT-lists.driftline.org
> Message-ID: <AF6BAB9E-F4DD-11DA-9214-003065AB1E0A-AT-mindspring.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed
>
>
> On Jun 5, 2006, at 1:05 PM, Gregory Ballora wrote:
>
>> No, the wire I am talking about is hardened spring
>> steel. I really don't know why it is called "music
>> wire", since I have never seen an instrument that uses it.
>
> FWIW - Um, isn't this piano wire? That stuff they use to make the music
> on a piano? I believe there was a long discussion about how to and how
> not to bend this kind of wire on this list about 9 months ago.
> Yes, it is also used for springs, thus the name spring wire. It is the
> kind of spring like on a clothes pin.
> This is different than what many people call spring steel which is flat
> and used to be used to hold loads on pallets for shipping. Now they
> mostly use plastic strap (which is good stuff for the inside of the
> lower hem of a hand puppet - if you find the heavy stuff) or plastic
> film.
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2006 22:54:35 -0400
> From: Sandy Barton <sandbar-AT-wowway.com>
> Subject: Re: [Puptcrit] Marionette Stringing advice?
> To: puptcrit-AT-lists.driftline.org
> Message-ID: <4484EE6B.4090105-AT-wowway.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed
>
> Christopher Hudert wrote:
>
>>FWIW - Um, isn't this piano wire? That stuff they use to make the music
>>on a piano?
>>
> Okay, but I'm not cannibalizing my piano just now. I do live with
> guitarists, however, and I'm always finding guitar strings lying about.
> Just thinking of ways to recycle. <G>
>
>>Now they
>>mostly use plastic strap (which is good stuff for the inside of the
>>lower hem of a hand puppet - if you find the heavy stuff) or plastic
>>film.
>>
>>
> I've been saving this stuff from work, knowing that I could use them in
> puppets somehow. The hem of a hand puppet is a great idea. Thanks!
>
> Sandy
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 4
> Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2006 22:27:05 -0500
> From: Andrew <puppetvision-AT-gmail.com>
> Subject: [Puptcrit] The Secret of Making Marionettes (Popular
>    Mechanics   Article)
> To: puptcrit-AT-lists.driftline.org
> Message-ID:
>    <30657e0d0606052027n22f25b69h4f857c9bafe7d157-AT-mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
>
> I thought some of you here who are interested in marionettes might be
> interested in this...a 1934 Popular Mechanics article entitled "The
> Secret of Making Marionettes" -
> http://blog.modernmechanix.com/2006/06/03/the-secrets-of-making-marionettes/
>
> Enjoy!
>
>
> -- 
>
> The PuppetVision Blog
> "The web's best source for puppet film and video goodness, delivered
> fresh to your computer each day."
> http://puppetvision.blogspot.com
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 5
> Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2006 00:42:21 EDT
> From: Angusson-AT-aol.com
> Subject: Re: [Puptcrit] The Secret of Making Marionettes (Popular
>    Mechanics   Article)
> To: puptcrit-AT-lists.driftline.org
> Message-ID: <438.2947a2b.31b661ad-AT-aol.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
>
> Thanks for posting this article.
> This came out right after Rufus and Margo Rose's success at the 1933 
> Chicago
> World's Fair. They were hired by Tony Sarg to operate the 'A&P Carnival'
> sponsored by the Great Atlantic and Pacific Tea Company,' which became the 
> A&P
> super markets we know today.
> While the show was ostensibly Tony's production, it really became the 
> Rose's
> show, since Tony was swamped with other work at the fair.
>
> The Roses had worked for Sarg in the late '20s and then went off on their 
> own
> to form 'The Rufus Rose Marionettes.'   Tony called them to work on the 
> fair
> show at a time when their own bookings were in doubt.
>
> Bil Baird also worked on a few of the marionettes used in the fair show.
> Great memories.
>
> Fred T.
>
>
>> I thought some of you here who are interested in marionettes might be
>> interested in this...a 1934 Popular Mechanics article entitled "The
>> Secret of Making Marionettes" -
>> http://blog.modernmechanix.com/2006/06/03/the-secrets-of-making-marionettes/
>>
>> Enjoy!
>>
>>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 6
> Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2006 01:11:14 -0400
> From: Mathieu Ren? <creaturiste-AT-magma.ca>
> Subject: Re: [Puptcrit] composition casting
> To: <puptcrit-AT-lists.driftline.org>
> Message-ID: <006d01c68928$187d7490$8a34f3c7-AT-critter1>
> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
>    reply-type=original
>
> Hi Dan.
> The composition slip you are refering to is probably Neoprene.
>
> If you want to see it used extensively for masks, see:
> www.goblinart.com.
> The head goblin, Monica J. Roxburg learned the base technique years ago 
> from
> one of the maskmakers who worked on the movie Labyrinth.
>
>
> Neoprene is strong and flexible but has a very limited lifespan.
> It is susceptible to UV rays, human sweat, and it can be torn. Sugar acts
> like an acid on it.
> I'm not trying to put it down, it's still is an awesome material, as I 
> have
> seen the results many times.
> I even owned one of those neoprene masks, which is still good looking 
> after
> over 4 years on my shelf, as I never really wore it. I recently donated it
> to a local theatre I work with often. Judging by the state of their masks
> from the same line, it should not last more than two years of regular use 
> on
> the stage.
> most of their masks suffer from color scrathcing away, sweat dmage inside,
> and lots have tears already.
> I tried to fix one using latex, but one sees how ephemeral this will be.
> The neoprene that has become tacky will only continue this process until
> there is no useable mask left.
>
> Neoprene I would use for TV productions that don't need the mask once the
> series or show is done and reccorded on film. But for anything that should
> last over 5 years, I'd make another choice of material.
> Keeping the original molds in a safe place will enable the show to start
> again when a mask becomes unusable.
>
>
> I wonder if a silicone could be used to make a permanent mask?
> Something like Rebound 25, by smooth-on?
> Or something a bit stiffer?
> Silicone is not supposed to age, i was told.
> I can't know for sure, I was only told and there was no other reference to
> that.
>
>
>
>
> Mathieu Ren? Cr?aturiste
> Marionnettes, Masques, Etcetera...
> Puppets, Masks, Etcetera...
> www.creaturiste.com
> creaturiste-AT-magma.ca
> (514) 274-8027
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 7
> Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2006 01:39:22 -0400
> From: Christopher Hudert <heyhoot-AT-mindspring.com>
> Subject: Re: [Puptcrit] composition casting
> To: puptcrit-AT-lists.driftline.org
> Message-ID: <CE72E3B0-F51E-11DA-B39E-003065AB1E0A-AT-mindspring.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
>
>
> On Jun 6, 2006, at 1:11 AM, Mathieu Ren? wrote:
>
>> The composition slip you are refering to is probably Neoprene.
>> <clip>
>> Neoprene is strong and flexible but has a very limited lifespan.
>> It is susceptible to UV rays, human sweat, and it can be torn. Sugar
>> acts
>> like an acid on it.
>> ...
>> I even owned one of those neoprene masks, which is still good looking
>> after
>> over 4 years on my shelf, as I never really wore it. I recently
>> donated it
>> to a local theatre I work with often. Judging by the state of their
>> masks
>> from the same line, it should not last more than two years of regular
>> use on
>> the stage. Most of their masks suffer from color scratching away,
>> sweat dmage inside,
>> and lots have tears already.
>> I tried to fix one using latex, but one sees how ephemeral this will
>> be.
>> The neoprene that has become tacky will only continue this process
>> until
>> there is no useable mask left.
>>
>> Neoprene I would use for TV productions that don't need the mask once
>> the
>> series or show is done and reccorded on film. But for anything that
>> should
>> last over 5 years, I'd make another choice of material.
>> Keeping the original molds in a safe place will enable the show to
>> start
>> again when a mask becomes unusable.
>
> Interesting. I made neoprene monkey masks (as well as heads and feet
> for the monkey puppets and almost all of the other characters) for
> Jungle Book. That was in 1994, I believe. The majority of the masks and
> puppets are in good condition to this day. No they are not used daily,
> but have seen a pretty good amount of use and a fair share of abuse
> over the years. Although this is not a show that sees regular
> performances (too large for us) I also have other puppets that are used
> regularly that are made of neoprene. They are in good condition as
> well, most well over your 5 year limit.
>  I don't have as much experience with masks as I do puppets, but if I
> were to want a neoprene mask to last a long time I would a) paint the
> inside to protect it from UV, sweat, and body sugars, b) I might also
> line the inside with fabric or a foam that would help sit it ever so
> slightly away from the face, c) see that it was taken care of. Seems to
> me that these steps would allow a neoprene mask to last as long as, or
> longer than, most other mask materials.
>
> c
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 8
> Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2006 01:57:26 -0400
> From: Mathieu Ren? <creaturiste-AT-magma.ca>
> Subject: Re: [Puptcrit] Marionette Stringing advice?
> To: <puptcrit-AT-lists.driftline.org>
> Message-ID: <00a401c6892e$1e5c3c60$8a34f3c7-AT-critter1>
> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
>    reply-type=original
>
> I want to thank everyone who offered advice and techniques on stringing.
> They are all much appreciated and I am learning a lot from them!
>
> Keep them coming, if you have them.
> That article about Making marionnettes shall be preciously archived in my
> files!
> For those who want tos ave it, make sure you click on ecery single big
> picture and wait for the reall size picture to load. it is BIG on the
> screen, but will print better on a printer, if you print from a paint
> program such as Photoshop or Paint shop pro.
>
> Thanks Andrew for posting it!
>
>
> Mathieu Ren? Cr?aturiste
> Marionnettes, Masques, Etcetera...
> Puppets, Masks, Etcetera...
> www.creaturiste.com
> creaturiste-AT-magma.ca
> (514) 274-8027
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 9
> Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2006 02:35:19 -0400
> From: Mathieu Ren? <creaturiste-AT-magma.ca>
> Subject: [Puptcrit] Plastalina Quick Fix
> To: <puptcrit-AT-lists.driftline.org>
> Message-ID: <00af01c68933$62d4d2d0$8a34f3c7-AT-critter1>
> Content-Type: text/plain;   charset="Windows-1252"
>
> I have been using cheap plastalina (namely, Giotto Pongo, a modeling clay 
> for
> kids, which I bought because that's all I could afford in bulk, and 
> because it
> felt as close to Plastalina as I could find.
>
> Like plastalina, it can be influenced by heat, becoming softer as it is 
> getting
> hotter.
> The Giotto stuff is VERY sensitive to heat. Hard to work with the hands in 
> the
> winter (but awesome for detail work wih a tool), and ahrdto control in the
> summer, as it gets too soft.
> Tonight I was refining my puppet's heads, and deciced to test something I 
> had
> read about and briefly tested months ago: freezing the stuff.
> It worked like a charm.
>
> The whole puppet model was put in the freezer for an hour, and when I took 
> it
> ot, it was firm and cold.
> Not cold enough to give anyone any frostbite, mind you.
> If you keep your hand away from the sculpt and use metal tools, the 
> firmness
> will last a while.
> I was able to really detail and smooth everything like never before.
> My detail tools really became detail tools!
> I was able to finally control those delicate nose  and eye shapes!
>
> This should work with "real" plastalina. Same principles.
> So far and from mny experiences, all properties of Plastalina are also 
> posessed
> by the Giotto, except for heat stability and resistance to oil leeching. 
> The
> Giotto Pongo cannnot be left for any extended period of time on a  plaster 
> form,
> as the oils on the clay will  be leeched by the plaster. This will make a 
> thick
> layer of palster into something stiff and brittle. It can be saved by 
> re-melting
> on a double boiloer and adding some mineral oil (heavy body). Only a 
> little oil
> at a time, mix very well, and take a spoonful of it, cool it completely, 
> and
> test its texture and hardness. This is the only way to know if the 
> reconditioned
> clay is the right stiffness level.
> When hot, it will always be softer.
>
> The leeching problem is much less of a probloem with the small quantity of
> Chavant Lebeautouch? plastalina I have.
>
>
> The freezing has the advantage that it does not apprently change the 
> recipe of
> the clay, and it will come back to normal softness as it thaws.
>
> There is a bonus feature!
> There is sweat on the sculpt, either from actual trapped moisture coming 
> out to
> the surface, or from condensation, but whiechever the cause, this is a 
> welcome
> bonus. It can serve as a lubricant!
>
> Use a sharp loop tool to shave off excess texture, and make you sculpt as 
> smooth
> as porcelain!
> Keep the shavings, and prevent them from hitting the floor. They stick
> everywhere.
> Squish them into a ball as you go.
>
>
> Note to the pros who only swear by the real stuff and wonder why I went 
> the
> cheap way this time:
> No need to get into details, but when one needs to work even more to get 
> his
> break one day, he uses what he can afford for the minimum quantity 
> required.  Or
> actually in the Giotto case, what the previous maskmaking project was able 
> to
> pay for. The Giotto Pongo clay works very well under the right conditions.
> It takes about 20 mionutes to modifiy the recipe in a double boiler. Even 
> when
> brannd new, I can add more oil, blend clay colors together to get my 
> better gray
> color, and soon I may try adding some carnauba wax to raise the melting 
> point a
> bit higher.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Mathieu Ren? Cr?aturiste
> Marionnettes, Masques, Etcetera...
> Puppets, Masks, Etcetera...
> www.creaturiste.com
> creaturiste-AT-magma.ca
> (514) 274-8027
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 10
> Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2006 08:51:22 -0400
> From: "Robert Rogers" <robertrogers-AT-frontiernet.net>
> Subject: Re: [Puptcrit] Plastalina Quick Fix
> To: <puptcrit-AT-lists.driftline.org>
> Message-ID: <000c01c68967$eb807920$88d4d7aa-AT-puppet>
> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="Windows-1252";
>    reply-type=original
>
>>I have been using cheap plastalina (namely, Giotto Pongo, a modeling clay
>>for kids...
>>Like plastalina, it can be influenced by heat...
>
> Whatever you do, if you are trying to soften your oil based clay, say 
> during
> the colder months, keep it away from any strong heat source (an oven,
> radiator or space heater).  It is extremely flammable and burns with a
> putrid smell.  Believe me, I know.  When I was younger and didn't know
> better, I made that dreadful mistake!
>
> Robert Rogers
> www.robertrogerspuppets.com
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 11
> Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2006 11:31:19 -0400
> From: Mathieu Ren? <creaturiste-AT-magma.ca>
> Subject: Re: [Puptcrit] Plastalina Quick Fix
> To: <puptcrit-AT-lists.driftline.org>
> Message-ID: <003601c6897e$436efe70$4234f3c7-AT-critter1>
> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
>    reply-type=original
>
> Thanks Roger.
> I am always carefeul with flammables.
> I use a lightbulb to keep the clay soft in the winter, and not a very 
> strong
> one at that.
>
>
> Mathieu Ren? Cr?aturiste
> Marionnettes, Masques, Etcetera...
> Puppets, Masks, Etcetera...
> www.creaturiste.com
> creaturiste-AT-magma.ca
> (514) 274-8027
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 12
> Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2006 08:40:33 -0700 (PDT)
> From: Gregory Ballora <gregballora-AT-sbcglobal.net>
> Subject: Re: [Puptcrit] Marionette Stringing advice?
> To: puptcrit-AT-lists.driftline.org
> Message-ID: <20060606154033.38917.qmail-AT-web82706.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
>
>
>
>
>
>> Christopher Hudert wrote:
>>
>> >FWIW - Um, isn't this piano wire? That stuff they
>> use to make the music
>> >on a piano?
>
> I don't think it is. My memory says that real piano
> strings are wrapped, like guitar strings. And I don't
> think there is any note on a piano that would require
> 1/4" solid steel "wire". I will check on my Mommy's
> Steinway when I see her next.
>
> Sorry I missed the previous discussion on this
> subject.
>
> GB
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> List address: puptcrit-AT-lists.driftline.org
> Admin interface: 
> http://lists.driftline.org/listinfo.cgi/puptcrit-driftline.org
> Archives: http://www.driftline.org
>
> End of puptcrit Digest, Vol 20, Issue 9
> ***************************************
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