File puptcrit/puptcrit.0705, message 121


Date: Tue, 15 May 2007 21:38:00 -0500 (CDT)
To: puptcrit-AT-lists.driftline.org
Subject: Re: [Puptcrit] puptcrit Digest, Vol 31, Issue 16


Alan, here is a question from Elaine Taylor.

How do dolls fit in with your connection of kinetic sculpture with puppets? We 
have been debating this subject for nearly twenty years. Elaine feels that 
dolls are another form of puppetry. You move them around with your hands, you 
tell a story or they doll holder creates a story in her imagination and is 
performed by the doll for the holder of that doll.  The doll holder may create 
a setting, costuming, various manipulations, sound effects, in other words it 
is a performance . . . even if only the doll holder is a one person audience. 
Sometimes there may be a larger audience of two or more.  This Elaine says is 
intimate theater.  The right puppet and the right puppeteer could be really 
intimate puppet theater.  Elaine thinks that people who use/play with dolls 
are actually doing a form of puppetry.

What say you, Alan?  Charles. 





>From: puptcrit-request-AT-lists.driftline.org
>Date: 2007/05/15 Tue PM 05:40:37 CDT
>To: puptcrit-AT-lists.driftline.org
>Subject: puptcrit Digest, Vol 31, Issue 16

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>Today's Topics:
>
>   1. Re: "IS IT PUPPETRY?" (Greg Ballora)
>   2. Re: "IS IT PUPPETRY?" (Mathieu Ren?)
>   3. Re: puptcrit Digest, Vol 31,	Issue 15: Alan Cook - singing to
>      the choir (Tina Farmilo)
>
>
>----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>Message: 1
>Date: Mon, 14 May 2007 22:54:10 -0700
>From: Greg Ballora <gregballora-AT-sbcglobal.net>
>Subject: Re: [Puptcrit] "IS IT PUPPETRY?"
>To: puptcrit-AT-lists.driftline.org
>Message-ID: <c244be2079aabcf73a2739be89d0f03e-AT-sbcglobal.net>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed
>
>I am glad someone responded to my rant. It wasn't meant to kill 
>discussion, but to further it.  As one of the Choir members, I can feel 
>Brother Alan's eye on me in the loft. I think Alan and I are pretty 
>much in accord, except for semantics, but maybe not.
>On May 14, 2007, at 12:31 AM, Alan Cook wrote:
>
>> The wrong question was asked.
>>
>> The wind-operated sculptures are described as KINETIC SCULPTURES which 
>> also could be considered MOBILES. The question should be "how do these 
>> works relate to standard forms of puppets?"
>>
>> The answer: all are mobile sculptures or kinetic sculptures. Alexander 
>> Calder's table-top puppet circus was also a good example of mobile 
>> sculpture
>
>Yep, I'm with you here, and I like the reminder of describing puppetry 
>as Kinetic sculpture. A really good description of a lot of Michael 
>Curry's work to me.
>
>> Rather than worry if recognition of puppetry's connections with other 
>> art forms is necessary for the increased public respect for puppetry, 
>> I think it is more productive to point out to the public that puppetry 
>> Is a kinetic ART form and related to OTHER kinetic sculptures. Mask 
>> performance can be a close relative of puppetry. Many personal 
>> puppetry friends collected masks because they saw the connection too.
>If this is in response to what I wrote, I agree with you that Mask 
>performance can be a very closely related art form, and the two 
>disciplines can learn a lot from each other. Blurring the lines between 
>the two can make for good theater. At the same time, it is useful to 
>keep the terms distinct, or the language gets confusing.
>>
>> Why does puppetry need to toot its own horn? Because the public at 
>> large is too damned ignorant about the wide spectrum
>> of its artistry.
>
>I don't think anyone is going to argue with that, I think I was just 
>saying "Let's toot the puppetry horn over puppetry".
>> As for stop motion PUPPETS, which ARE DESIGNED TO MOVE IN PERFORMANCE, 
>> I have always included stop-motion in my definition of puppetry. As 
>> for "performance in real time" stop-motion qualifies---the real time 
>> is simply slow-motion real time.
>>
>> You can consider the space time continuum
>> a philosophical, a scientific or an artistic problem---it is up to you.
>
>On a practical level, this is kind of sketchy to me, but I like it on a 
>poetic level.
>> In regard to stop-motion puppets, the concept behind the form is a 
>> PUPPETRY CONCEPT. I speak as one who has worked in stop-motion, 
>> marionettes, rod puppets, shadow puppets & hand puppets. I see no need 
>> to limit recognition of obvious connections.
>>
>> George Pal called his stop-motion films PUPPEToons. Prominent Los 
>> Angeles puppeteer Bob Baker and Don Sahlin (Muppet builder, assistant 
>> to Burr Tillstrom, who also puppeteered with a host of distinguished 
>> puppeteers---both these guys did excellent stop-motion PUPPETRY.  Ray 
>> Peck began as an actor in NYC, worked with Sue Hastings MARIONETTES in 
>> NYC, and did stop-motion puppetry with Art Clokey's 'Davey & Goliath" 
>> TV series. It is all PUPPETRY.
>>
>While all this is true, I am still not entirely convinced. Ray Peck 
>started as an Actor, and all that acting experience went into his 
>puppetry. I am sure you could find far more instances of Actors that 
>were puppeteers also, but you wouldn't collapse those two forms. How 
>many puppeteers are also dancers? Many of those "puppetry concepts" are 
>also actor concepts and painter concepts, with some varying technique 
>thrown in. They are as you say, related forms. I haven't done any 
>stop-motion animation since college, so I am not the authority that you 
>are Alan, but I recall feeling like there were many techniques and 
>skills that were specific to that form, So many that it seems to call 
>for it's own description.
>
>Of course, no matter what we call it, Puppetry and Animation are what 
>they are, where one draws the line is semantic. Calling them 
>"Puppetoons" doesn't make them any more or less puppets, but it is 
>great name. I just think it is clearer, and serves both performances 
>better to give them separate names. That is just me, so this is not an 
>argument I need to win.
>> Sometimes it is necessary to preach to the choir
>> ALAN COOK
>>
>I think we are all happy and grateful that you do. Keep it up!
>> _______________________________________________
>> List address: puptcrit-AT-lists.driftline.org
>> Admin interface: 
>> http://lists.driftline.org/listinfo.cgi/puptcrit-driftline.org
>> Archives: http://www.driftline.org
>>
>
>
>
>------------------------------
>
>Message: 2
>Date: Tue, 15 May 2007 04:44:18 -0400
>From: Mathieu Ren? <creaturiste-AT-magma.ca>
>Subject: Re: [Puptcrit] "IS IT PUPPETRY?"
>To: <puptcrit-AT-lists.driftline.org>
>Message-ID: <000501c796cd$3a585cc0$4f1b70cf-AT-critter1>
>Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
>	reply-type=original
>
>I really enjoyed alan's post about wha is Puppetry.
>
>To me it shows a kind of poissibly-all-encompassing open-mindedness that, 
>instead of blocking one's perceptions into blinds and boxes, actually 
>enables one to learn and grow.
>
>What's wrong with a banana peel and a hammer being categorised into the same 
>species, during the time of a puppet show?
>
>This coming from me, the guy who refused to see a specific show performed 
>with everyday objects that claimed to be puppetry (I hated that concept, 
>being so charmed by actual puppets), and then changing my mind completely 
>when the show seduced me within ten minutes!
>
>Ever since then I try to keep an open mind for possibilities, for 
>exceptions, for expansion capabilities.
>After all, being proven wrong can prove to be much better than being right.
>
>
>Sorry if I got lost in my weird examples. I just finished reading a 
>wonderful Sci-Fi novel by Frederick Pohl (Gateway) in one sitting, and the 
>philosophical and existential mood is still in effect.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>----- Original Message ----- 
>From: "Greg Ballora" <gregballora-AT-sbcglobal.net>
>To: <puptcrit-AT-lists.driftline.org>
>Sent: Tuesday, May 15, 2007 1:54 AM
>Subject: Re: [Puptcrit] "IS IT PUPPETRY?"
>
>
>>I am glad someone responded to my rant. It wasn't meant to kill
>> discussion, but to further it.  As one of the Choir members, I can feel
>> Brother Alan's eye on me in the loft. I think Alan and I are pretty
>> much in accord, except for semantics, but maybe not.
>> On May 14, 2007, at 12:31 AM, Alan Cook wrote:
>>
>>> The wrong question was asked.
>>>
>>> The wind-operated sculptures are described as KINETIC SCULPTURES which
>>> also could be considered MOBILES. The question should be "how do these
>>> works relate to standard forms of puppets?"
>>>
>>> The answer: all are mobile sculptures or kinetic sculptures. Alexander
>>> Calder's table-top puppet circus was also a good example of mobile
>>> sculpture
>>
>> Yep, I'm with you here, and I like the reminder of describing puppetry
>> as Kinetic sculpture. A really good description of a lot of Michael
>> Curry's work to me.
>>
>>> Rather than worry if recognition of puppetry's connections with other
>>> art forms is necessary for the increased public respect for puppetry,
>>> I think it is more productive to point out to the public that puppetry
>>> Is a kinetic ART form and related to OTHER kinetic sculptures. Mask
>>> performance can be a close relative of puppetry. Many personal
>>> puppetry friends collected masks because they saw the connection too.
>> If this is in response to what I wrote, I agree with you that Mask
>> performance can be a very closely related art form, and the two
>> disciplines can learn a lot from each other. Blurring the lines between
>> the two can make for good theater. At the same time, it is useful to
>> keep the terms distinct, or the language gets confusing.
>>>
>>> Why does puppetry need to toot its own horn? Because the public at
>>> large is too damned ignorant about the wide spectrum
>>> of its artistry.
>>
>> I don't think anyone is going to argue with that, I think I was just
>> saying "Let's toot the puppetry horn over puppetry".
>>> As for stop motion PUPPETS, which ARE DESIGNED TO MOVE IN PERFORMANCE,
>>> I have always included stop-motion in my definition of puppetry. As
>>> for "performance in real time" stop-motion qualifies---the real time
>>> is simply slow-motion real time.
>>>
>>> You can consider the space time continuum
>>> a philosophical, a scientific or an artistic problem---it is up to you.
>>
>> On a practical level, this is kind of sketchy to me, but I like it on a
>> poetic level.
>>> In regard to stop-motion puppets, the concept behind the form is a
>>> PUPPETRY CONCEPT. I speak as one who has worked in stop-motion,
>>> marionettes, rod puppets, shadow puppets & hand puppets. I see no need
>>> to limit recognition of obvious connections.
>>>
>>> George Pal called his stop-motion films PUPPEToons. Prominent Los
>>> Angeles puppeteer Bob Baker and Don Sahlin (Muppet builder, assistant
>>> to Burr Tillstrom, who also puppeteered with a host of distinguished
>>> puppeteers---both these guys did excellent stop-motion PUPPETRY.  Ray
>>> Peck began as an actor in NYC, worked with Sue Hastings MARIONETTES in
>>> NYC, and did stop-motion puppetry with Art Clokey's 'Davey & Goliath"
>>> TV series. It is all PUPPETRY.
>>>
>> While all this is true, I am still not entirely convinced. Ray Peck
>> started as an Actor, and all that acting experience went into his
>> puppetry. I am sure you could find far more instances of Actors that
>> were puppeteers also, but you wouldn't collapse those two forms. How
>> many puppeteers are also dancers? Many of those "puppetry concepts" are
>> also actor concepts and painter concepts, with some varying technique
>> thrown in. They are as you say, related forms. I haven't done any
>> stop-motion animation since college, so I am not the authority that you
>> are Alan, but I recall feeling like there were many techniques and
>> skills that were specific to that form, So many that it seems to call
>> for it's own description.
>>
>> Of course, no matter what we call it, Puppetry and Animation are what
>> they are, where one draws the line is semantic. Calling them
>> "Puppetoons" doesn't make them any more or less puppets, but it is
>> great name. I just think it is clearer, and serves both performances
>> better to give them separate names. That is just me, so this is not an
>> argument I need to win.
>>> Sometimes it is necessary to preach to the choir
>>> ALAN COOK
>>>
>> I think we are all happy and grateful that you do. Keep it up!
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> List address: puptcrit-AT-lists.driftline.org
>>> Admin interface:
>>> http://lists.driftline.org/listinfo.cgi/puptcrit-driftline.org
>>> Archives: http://www.driftline.org
>>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> List address: puptcrit-AT-lists.driftline.org
>> Admin interface: 
>> http://lists.driftline.org/listinfo.cgi/puptcrit-driftline.org
>> Archives: http://www.driftline.org 
>
>
>
>------------------------------
>
>Message: 3
>Date: Tue, 15 May 2007 15:24:06 -0700
>From: "Tina Farmilo" <CFAR-AT-gulfislands.com>
>Subject: Re: [Puptcrit] puptcrit Digest, Vol 31,	Issue 15: Alan Cook -
>	singing to the choir
>To: "'Alan Cook'" <alangregorycook-AT-msn.com>,
>	<puptcrit-AT-lists.driftline.org>
>Message-ID: <20070515222345.157661EF89D2-AT-mail2.imagen.ca>
>Content-Type: text/plain;	charset="us-ascii"
>
>Thanks very much Alan, for your excellent rant in the last puptcrit digest
>[vol. 31 issue 15]. I relish these occasional revelations of the driving
>passions that underlie a fellow artist's engagement with puppets and other
>forms of embodied story telling. 
>
> 
>
>Puppetry is  an interdisciplinary art-form. Definitions are interesting and
>boundaries necessary but we also have the advantage of enormous freedom to
>explore and find inspiration in many creative practises. 
>
> 
>
>Cheers,
>
>Tina
>
> 
>
>
>
>------------------------------
>
>_______________________________________________
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>Admin interface: http://lists.driftline.org/listinfo.cgi/puptcrit-
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>End of puptcrit Digest, Vol 31, Issue 16
>****************************************

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