From: "Ann Legunn" <vtpuppet-AT-starband.net>
To: <puptcrit-AT-puptcrit.org>
Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2007 09:05:02 -0500
Subject: Re: [Puptcrit] Fw:  How much $ for music


Puptcritters, 

Well I am glad to see this has ended with good will toward all. I asked the
question not to cause a conflict but to gather information and establish a
realistic music budget for our next production. 

Thank you to everyone who has sent information, it has been a huge help. 

Ann Legunn
-AT- The PuppeTree Inc.


-----Original Message-----
From: puptcrit-bounces-AT-puptcrit.org [mailto:puptcrit-bounces-AT-puptcrit.org]
On Behalf Of Kismet
Sent: Friday, November 09, 2007 4:22 PM
To: puptcrit-AT-puptcrit.org
Subject: [Puptcrit] Fw: How much $ for music




Must confess Michael that I dont drink Latte's either.....strictly a tea
 person myself and Im sorry if I come across somewhat ascerbic, my day job
www.artsync.com.au ...well one of them...is fighting for the rights and
recognition of Artists for a fair pay for a fair days work.
 I actually live in a very small community....about 300 people....25-30
 minutes from a sizeable population...about 120,000 and an hour and a halfs
 drive from a city of 500,000...pretty small stuff comapred to Baltimores
 640,000 odd people in a district of what.....8 million people?????. The
 great thing about small communities is that they are adventurous, they take
 risks in their entertainment and they are incredible
 supportive....fortunatley we have succesfully challenged the concept of
 cultural hubs.....well mostly...... and our national Government is 
committed
 to providing cultural opportunities for remote and regional communities so
 we do get some wonderful artists visiting and artists do get subsidised to
 travel......having said that in March I will drive for four days straight 
to
 perform at a festival where only our costs will be covered and our wages
 coming from the door...IF we are lucky.....I will then turn around and 
drive
 back only to load up again in June and drive for seven days to get to the
 UNIMA 2008 International Congress....... then back........ My other day 
job,
 as a program manager (puppetry) for www.woodfordfolkfestival.com (Program
 now online!) is a 45 minute drive.....The Gamalen Orchestra I refered to is
 4 hours away....I guess Im saying that I know a little about living in 
small
 and remote communities!
Im sorry I was under the impression that the fee was $75-$100 per year not 
per performance, that is somewhat excessive for a recording, particularly as

there are an awful lot of music student who will create a similar sound 
scape for a similar fee for your exclusive and perpetual use. IF you email 
me the sound bytes you want I can ask one of our emerging or student multi 
media artists to have a play....you only pay for what you like.
Having said that, 20-30 seconds comes under our fair use laws as a 
sample....I dont know if the States has the same?

Bismillah ir-Rahman ir-Rahim

Daniel



> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Michael Richardson" <zenchops59-AT-yahoo.com>
> To: <puptcrit-AT-puptcrit.org>
> Sent: Friday, November 09, 2007 2:44 PM
> Subject: Re: [Puptcrit] How much $ for music
>
>
>> Daniel,
>>         That's quite an opinion you have there !  No, I don't buy lattes 
>> at all, if you want the truth.
>>
>>      That's great that you apparently live in a large metropolitan area, 
>> where you can launch those expensive projects, and maybe there will be 
>> enough audience members available to cover your costs. I lived in 
>> Baltimore before I moved to Missisippi, and indeed, such enviroments can 
>> allow an artist to make leaps as you describe.  But in this region, I 
>> watch as schools and other venues in the region cannot afford 50 cents a 
>> mile travel costs beyond  150 miles out,on top of a $250 wage for an 
>> entire day  of performances..Kind of makes a royalty tab of $ $75-100 
>> per performance seem a little prohibitive, wouldn't you agree ? Trouble 
>> is,
>>  I reject completely the idea that only 3 or 4 cities in America are the 
>> Cultural Mecca and every where else is just a wasteland .    Every venue 
>> that I will market to within this southeast region for the show I am 
>> trying to produce will be looking at probably $1000 in travel and freight

>> costs, while I hope to net maybe $300 a day. This is the picture I'm 
>> working with. I would be overjoyed to pay for music on a per use/shared 
>> risk basis... but thus far I have not found a source willing to do that. 
>> After reviewing ASCAP's website, they in fact  specifically do NOT 
>> license music for " dramatic presentation s " but instead refer the 
>> inquirying party back to the music publisher.
>>  In my perusal of what people charge for royalty based/royalty free 
>> music, there does seem to be a wide spectrum of costs.In other words, 
>> some pipers cost more than others. I truly appreciate the input of our 
>> wonderful colleagues, as they toss some great ideas my way.
>>
>>       By the way, in Java right now, wayang theatre is facing some tough 
>> times, as modernization, development, and consumerism make greater 
>> inroads. Paying for a dalang and his crew  , especially a full Javanese 
>> type gamelan, is becoming a harder and harder sell, according to my 
>> friend of 20 years and and one of the most popular players in Yogyakarta.

>> Dealing with shrinking budgets is a fact of life there too. Consider that

>> the heart of the tradition is village, not urban, based.... kind of like 
>> Mississippi !
>>
>>    Wishing you success in your own production.
>>  Bismillah Romanir Rahim,
>>
>>      Michael
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>   What a sad debate.........
>> IF the artist in question had decided to NOT write the music because it 
>> may
>> not have a market where would you....or any one.....be?....IF the project

>> is
>> your arts practise then money is not an issue....if its business...then 
>> pay
>> the piper....Im sure you would spend more than that on Latte's in a
>> year.....are you quibbling with your materials supplier as well? with the
>> paint supply shop? Have you asked the landlord for cheaper rent? Then why

>> an
>> artist?.
>> In your professional career have you EVER sent a cheque to a fabric
>> supplier, paint manufacturer, advertising firm, audience member because 
>> your
>> production was an outstanding success? More profitable than you had
>> envisaged?
>> I just have a vision of Michealangelo haggling with the Quarry
>> man......"what if this statue is a failure...what if the pope he doesnt 
>> buy
>> it eh?" (in my worst Italian accent) "Give a me the marble for cheap and 
>> I
>> will look after you next time eh?...I mean whosa gonna buy a statue 
>> called
>> David?"
>> Of course a realistic solution, and one we use often is to ask the 
>> musician
>> to be a partner in the project...Ill pay 50% up front and an equitable 
>> share
>> of the profits...I have two shows coming up that work on that 
>> premise...one
>> is with a Gamelan Orchestra playing live during a Wayang Kulit
>> perfomance...imagine paying wages for a 30 piece orchestra PLUS 
>> puppeteers
>> and production costs WITHOUT presales!!!!!
>>
>> Daniel
>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>> From: "Michael Richardson"
>> To:
>>
>> Sent: Friday, November 09, 2007 6:37 AM
>> Subject: Re: [Puptcrit] How much $ for music
>>
>>
>>> Thank you, Steven for your voice of clarity on this. I forwarded your
>>> reply to the gentleman in question. We will see if that has any affect 
>>> on
>>> his proposition. I do find it a little problematic, having to agree to 
>>> pay
>>> $500 first, and THEN find out if there was actually a return from this
>>> project .. i.e., numberr of gigs.I do believe in paying other artists, 
>>> but
>>> only after its been proven that I myself am making anything to begin 
>>> with
>>> ! And I will definately be looking into the link you provided.
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>>
>>> Michael/ Red String Puppet Theatre
>>>
>>> Widerman-AT-aol.com wrote:
>>>
>>> These prices are way out of the ballpark for the intended use unless you
>>> are
>>> producing a major movie or TV broadcast. Usage fees are usually based 
>>> upon
>>> the venue and size of the audience. Call ASCAP for more information:
>>>
>>> _http://www.ascap.com/licensing/types.html_
>>> (http://www.ascap.com/licensing/types.html)
>>>
>>> For most small venues the fee should be in the single dollars range per
>>> use.
>>> Frequently, the venue is responsible for music royalties.
>>>
>>> I recommend that you play the tracks you like for a musician who is
>>> capable,
>>> and have them write and produce something similar. This is very common,
>>> e.g.
>>> George Lukas offering Gustav Holst's "The Planets" to John Williams as 
>>> an
>>> example of the music he would like for "Star Wars."
>>>
>>> -Steven->
>>>
>>>
>>> In a message dated 11/7/2007 3:23:53 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
>>> zenchops59-AT-yahoo.com writes:
>>>
>>> Well.... tell me what y'all think about this price for using music. 
>>> After
>>> a
>>> little web discussion, the CD publisher I've been speaking with has 
>>> asked
>>> for
>>> $125 per track per year.
>>> Originally I thought of using 4 tracks from this source... but I wonder
>>> now
>>> about paying $500 per year. In 3 of those 4 tracks, I actually only 
>>> wanted
>>> to
>>> use about 30-45 seconds worth of time. This is for an experimental
>>> production, which has no known number of bookings either!
>>>
>>> Anyone know... is this a good price ? the guy says this is heavily
>>> discounted.
>>>
>>> thanks,
>>>
>>> michael
>>> Red String Puppet Theatre
>>>
>>> Ann Legunn wrote:
>>> A good question Michael! I was offered one original song for my 
>>> exclusive
>>> use by a Vermont band for $1,000. I can use a song off their CD for $10
>>> per
>>> use.
>>>
>>> Ann Legunn -AT- The PuppeTree
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: puptcrit-bounces-AT-puptcrit.org 
>>> [mailto:puptcrit-bounces-AT-puptcrit.org]
>>> On Behalf Of Michael Richardson
>>> Sent: Wednesday, October 31, 2007 2:05 PM
>>> To: puptcrit-AT-puptcrit.org
>>> Subject: Re: [Puptcrit] copyright
>>>
>>> As we speak, I myself am currently negotiating with a CD company to 
>>> obtain
>>> the rights to include sections from four tracks in one of my latest
>>> productions. The fellow I've been emailing so far has been good to work
>>> with, as far as getting back to me. I'll let you know what transpires. 
>>> If
>>> it turns out to be too expensive then I'll be interested in what other
>>> folks
>>> mean when they say that hiringcustom music is also expensive ( like how
>>> expensive, right ? )
>>>
>>> Michael/aka Red String Puppet theatre
>>> puppetpro-AT-aol.com wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> Dear Puptcritters,
>>>
>>> Does anyone have any experience with getting copyright for musical
>>> selections used in their puppet plays?
>>>
>>> Rolande Duprey
>>> Purple Rock Productions
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ************************************** See what's new at
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>>
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