Date: Sat, 27 Sep 2008 14:11:13 -0700
To: puptcrit-AT-puptcrit.org
Subject: Re: [Puptcrit] actors vs. puppeteers


Tim is it?
I am amazed by your leaps of logic. Gretchen wrote

"I once had an actor audition for me and he actually asked, "So wait,  
the puppet is going to be in front of me the whole time?" I politely  
told him I'd, ahem, "be in touch."

How do you know you got it right on the nose? Do you know what her  
casting notice was?  Do you know what the show was? Do you know what  
the Actor's tone was when he said it? You are correct that it is  
easier to teach an actor to lip sync than to teach a puppeteer to  
sing-SOMETIMES.  But do you know if Gretchen's show needs singers? I  
haven't seen much of Gretchen's work, but from the little of it I  
have seen, it aint Lion King or Ave. Q. So who cares how "legitimate  
theater" does it. Gretchen is not the one that comes across as full  
of herself in this one.

This post of Tim's also brings up some interesting points about  
Puppets in "legitimate theater". A friend of mine, Julian Ledger, is  
currently performing in the LA Opera "The Fly" He can't really sing,  
probably can't dance, and to my kowledge has never been an actor. He  
is a good puppeteer though, and oddly, that was what they needed, so  
he was hired. All puppeteers have their strengths and weaknesses,  
just like actors. Some puppeteers are very "actorly", like many of  
the Henson performers. Krofft's used to like to hire dancers because  
they could learn choreography, and they did tend to be better at  
looking at the whole body for performing.

When I saw Lion King, I saw some really beautifully designed and made  
puppets that were sometimes well performed, and sometimes not. But  
the show was easily strong enough to carry them. Ave. Q is another  
interesting show, that I saw here in LA, and I watched really good  
singers try to be John Tartaglia and Stephanie D'Abruzzio, while  
doing a decent job of lip-syncing. It wasn't good puppetry though,  
and although that show is also clever enough to hold your attention,  
and most people don't know the difference between really good  
puppetry and passable puppetry, what people do know is that they just  
didn't love the show the way folks loved the original--that had GOOD  
puppeteers that could also sing.

The point is that different roles require different skills, just as  
with actors. These discussions of "actors vs. puppeteers" always seem  
silly to me, since they are really the same thing. Any good puppeteer  
who tries to create motivation for the puppet's movement is doing the  
job of an actor. Any actor who uses any acting technique to achieve  
an affect in his audience is, in a sense, puppeteering himself.

I had a great acting teacher, Dan Caldwell, who often said, "Love the  
art in yourself, not yourself in the art". Gretchen's actor probably  
fell on the second half of that phrase, and not only would have made  
a bad puppeteer, probably wasn't really much of an actor either...

Greg Ballora


On Sep 27, 2008, at 11:26 AM, The Puppetry Arts Theatre wrote:

> No I got it right on the nose!
>
> You cant assume the actor had a ego number one- that makes you look  
> bad.
>
> And again in legitimate theatre a casting call is a casting call.  
> Everyone
> goes to a casting call no matter. That's the nature of the business.
>
> The point I made- which is how all legitimate theatre works- is  
> that you get
> some one who is talented and you teach them puppetry. Puppeteers  
> are not
> always the best actors or singers- and talented puppeteers are not  
> in large
> numbers. If puppetry is your focus, great, just make sure that  
> talented
> fabric and fur manipulator can hold a note. You can teach an actor  
> lip sync
> but you cant teach a puppeteer to sing (at least in legitimate  
> theatre).
> Just like they do for lion king and ave q.
>
> Unless its big money, you gotta work with who you have. And I  
> simply said it
> was a bit snotty for that lady to repeat on puppetcrit what she did  
> to the
> actor. She came across as full of herself.
>
> She has a point, however, that in the best of circumstances you  
> want both- a
> talented puppeteer that can act and/or sing.
>
> But for many ma and pa kettle puppet shows, the funding isnt there  
> to lure
> that target talent.
>
> That's my point and Im sticking to it.
>
>
>
> On 9/27/08 1:57 PM, "Alan Cook" <alangregorycook-AT-msn.com> wrote:
>
>> I think Tim misses a point--the actor auditioning for a  
>> puppeteering job was
>> on the wrong wavelength- his ego was obviously in the way. Just  
>> like the actor
>> I mentioned some time ago on a puptcrit post. He was on the set,  
>> surrounded
>> with little kid actors (his audience) and he was closed to any  
>> puppeteering
>> hints, did not even practice walking the puppets---basically he  
>> just held the
>> puppets, then let them droop, and did his actor spiel. The result,  
>> two
>> catering trucks, a large crew, and a lot of effort went down the  
>> drain, and
>> the results were never seen on any TV screen. Big waste of other  
>> people's
>> time, work and money. In this case, an egotistic actor messed up  
>> the whole
>> thing He had no clue and did not want a clue.
>>
>> Gretchen trusted her instincts. Another actor could have worked  
>> out. And she
>> has worked with other actors.
>>
>> Give her the credit for common sense.
>>
>> ALAN COOK
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: The Puppetry Arts Theatre
>> Sent: Saturday, September 27, 2008 10:11 AM
>> To: puptcrit-AT-puptcrit.org
>> Subject: Re: [Puptcrit] actors vs. puppeteers
>>
>> That's kinda snotty... Why did you audition an actor if you didn't  
>> want one?
>> Its kinda presumptuous and pretentious to assume he knows a bout  
>> puppets-
>> he's an actor. When it comes to legitimate theatre, the actors are  
>> trained
>> in puppetry- the goal of a legitimate theatric production - like  
>> say Ave Q
>> for exp- is the make sure the actors can sing and act. Puppetry is  
>> third on
>> the list. That's how it is. So if that actor was talented enuff  
>> and you said
>> "ahem, id be in touch" just bc he's not familiar with puppetry you  
>> could
>> have just cut your nose off to spite your face don't ya think?
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On 9/27/08 12:15 PM, "Gretchen Van Lente"  
>> <gretchen-AT-dramaofworks.com> wrote:
>>
>>> I once had an actor audition for me and he actually asked, "So  
>>> wait, the
>>> puppet is going to be in front of me the whole time?" I politely  
>>> told him
>>> I'd,
>>> ahem, "be in touch."
>>> _______________________________________________
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>>
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>
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