File puptcrit/puptcrit.0905, message 289


From: "Alan Cook" <alangregorycook-AT-msn.com>
To: puptcrit-AT-puptcrit.org
Date: Tue, 19 May 2009 00:30:17 GMT
Subject: [Puptcrit] Clues to identifying if a wood marionette girl is


Yesterday, I received a request to help identify a girl marionette as part of an assessment procedure. It was thought to be Chinese.

It has an H shape wood control which is typically Burmese and copied by Thai puppet makers working in the same style.

Often, but not always, there is a small disc of wood at the base of the Burmese puppet neck. A PROPER Burmese puppet should have a round wood piece that is "wedge shaped" (Thicker on one side, thinner at the opposite side) but Thai rip-offs may have a flat washer shape which serves no purpose---the wedge puts the head in a certain forward position. A flat wedge does nothing but take up space.

Certain hair styles are seen in Chinese culture, but are not necessarily exclusive to China.

A collector was seeking information about this  girl marionette from Asia
The costume is a bit confusing in the photo that I received but the BODY SHAPE looks Burmese. Another point---Many Burmese male puppet bodies are anatomically correct, and so are the females. This is true of Burmese boy & girl horses, too.

In the 1960s,  Cost Plus, Pier One, even GUMP'S classy San Francisco store, sold folk-style Burmese horse marionettes which had carved male genitals. After complaints (in San Francisco, of all places???) by prudish customers, the Gump's staff removed the male body parts, selling castrated puppet horses which had a spot where white paint was missing. I bought such a horse from that store, and sent a complaint letter asking if it was possible to retrieve the missing part of the horse I had purchased. The following week, in the mail, packed in a Kodak slide film box, was the replacement body part. But an unknown number of customers did not get what they paid for---a complete puppet.

The head of the girl puppet in the photo itself does not look like any Chinese head I have seen so far, and the moving mouth is a "look" seen in MANY MANY MANY currently-made Burma/Thai puppets on the market.

MANY times seeing what kind of control the strings are attached to, is crucial to identifying puppets correctly..

There are so many variations in puppet construction around the world, so unless someone has seen enough examples, it is easy to misidentify a given puppet.

I am forwarding this to the assesor, but felt it appropriate to share this I.D. problem with puppeteers, who may have been asked for help in identifying countries of origin, or even specific makers. Bottom line, you need to have ennough comparison information, and none of us knows everything


-----Original Message-----
From: Greg Brown
Sent: Monday, May 18, 2009 2:16 PM
To: Alan Cook
Subject: Re: Question about a Chinese Marionette

Hahahha, Alan,

I love those last sentences! Thanks for the laugh.

As for the handle, it is "H" shaped. What does this tell you please? I find
it interesting that you think this might be other than Chinese, as the girl
and the clothing are exactly what I would expect on a Chinese piece like
this, but, I believe you because you have so much more experience in this
area than I do. This is why I ask questions of people who know more than me!
I am currently not seeing this being worth any more than $100.00. I did
notice that the head was larger than on any other Chinese marionette that I
saw. I also am pretty sure that the Thai and Burmese would have Huang Hua Li
wood as well. I say this because even though the Chinese are making new
furniture out of what is called Xin Huang Hua Li (xin = new), their supplies
have been outlawed because there is literally almost nothing letf of them,
so they import it from Viet Nam now, the direct vicinity of Thailand and
Burma.

Please feel free to ask any other questions, as I have not seen enough of
these to be able to recognize the "mouth" issue you have pointed out.

Sincerely, Greg.

On Mon, May 18, 2009 at 2:21 PM, Alan Cook <alangregorycook-AT-msn.com> wrote:

>  I did get the photos.
>
> Now for a new question---what is the shape of the control? Is it a T or H
> shape??
>
> I don't think this is Chinese tho the hair & costume are Chinese looking.
> The head looks Burmese or Burmese-style from Thailand. The animated mouth is
> similar to other Burmese or Burmese style from Thailand.  These days you see
> moving mouths frequently on such puppets---in older puppets it was much less
> common.  I don't personally care for how the mouth is
> positioned---suggests that the puppet is about to vomit---not an
> attractive design element.
> ------------------------------
> *From:* Greg Brown
> *Sent:* Monday, May 18, 2009 10:02 AM
> *To:* Alan Cook
> *Subject:* Re: Question about a Chinese Marionette
>
>  Alan,
> =EF=BF=BD
>  1) Thank you so much for your thoughtful and insightful email. I am very
> grateful for your kind effort.
> =EF=BF=BD
> 2) I do have some photos that the=EF=BF=BDowner sent to me, however, they are on
> a word document, and a bit strange to deal with. But, of course, I would be
> happy to send them to you. I do not have copyright permission for these
> images as it stands now, as I did not have her sign a contract yet because
> my instincts told me that the piece is not worth her hiring me to do an
> appraisal on. If I find that this is worth an appraisal I will have her
> contract with me,=EF=BF=BDat which point I would have copyright permission. So,
> please do not disseminate the images without asking me to get permission if
> you have a need to - thanks. If you are able to glean anything from the
> images, I would love to know what you have learned.
> =EF=BF=BD
>  3) I know the wood is Huang Hua Li because I have examined the piece in
> person. And, putting this together with your information, as well as the
> information I have received from another person, I now understand why this
> very important wood would have been used regularly, so, thanks.
> =EF=BF=BD
> 4) If you ever need my help in the future, please feel free to contact me.
> I am including two documents, a) my professional profile, b) something I
> call my "What to expect during the real appraisal process" document. This
> will help you, if you need it, to protect yourself from unscrupulous
> appraisers/dealers/galleries/auction houses, and it will also help you to
> understand the real appraisal process and how it works. Please feel free to
> give it to anyone. However,=EF=BF=BDI have been instructed by my lawyer to state
> the following in relation to this document,... Please do not alter the
> document in any way if you post it or give it out to anyone as this could
> set me up for a liability case if the information was changed.
> =EF=BF=BD
>  I hope this email finds you well.
> =EF=BF=BD
> Sincerely and gratefully, Greg.
>
>  On Mon, May 11, 2009 at 2:49 PM, Alan Cook <alangregorycook-AT-msn.com>wrote:
>
>>  Dear Greg Brown-
>>
>> I am afraid I am NOT an expert when it comes to types of wood. I tend to
>> look at wood as wood, and have to defer to others as to the type of wood.
>>
>> For much of my life, collecting puppets, I saw few Chinese marionettes
>> That has changed dramatically in recent years.
>>
>> The quality of the costumes varies greatly. Some old ones had VERY
>> elaborate hand embrodery, sequins, & glass beading. The first one I acquired
>> had been purchased by the previous owner in the 1930s in San Francisco It
>> had some PAPER panels glued to fabric.
>>
>> Since the arrival of numerous TV sets in Mainland China, a lot of
>> traditional Chinese marionette troupes went out of business in a very short
>> time There is much variation in scale, as well as great variation in the=EF=BF=BD
>> atterntion to detail in the carving of the heads and hands (many hands were
>> unpainted, while others were finished with a coat of paint which matched the
>> face color.)
>>
>> From this sort of evidence, I think it fair to surmise that some puppets
>> were more costly to produce than others. Some troupes had to be more
>> successful, more highly regarded, with better-quality figures.
>>
>> I may have at least 50 Chinese marionettes now---purchased in the last 6
>> or 8 years. Many have very simple costumes instead of the old heavy
>> embroidered ones. I have a couple of brand-new figures with the old
>> look---but the embroidery done by modern machines.
>>
>> Back in the 1960s in Taiwan, TV expanded dramatically and overnight at
>> least 1000 hand puppet troupes went out of business---ironically=EF=BF=BD one
>> of the most popular TV shows was a hand puppet show, which led to the demise
>> of the other troupes
>>
>> It was in Orientations Magazine or a similar arts publicatioin that I read
>> about the special use of marionettes to placate angry diviinities. The
>> author told of sneaking in (as a child) to see a performance intended only
>> for the gods. That night he had nightmares and woke up the household,
>> confessing to his transgression.
>>
>> The solution to put things aright, was simple enough. Another marionette
>> performance for the gods, with no mortals in the audience solved the
>> problem.
>>
>> So I can easily imagine costly wood, and intricately embrodered costumes
>> for a high class puppet production. The clients would not have been
>> peasants.
>>
>> Over time, puppet heads might be exchanged from one body to another (it is
>> known to happen in Europe & the USA), so even if the current body is dressed
>> in an ordinary costume it might have had=EF=BF=BD fancier outfit if it is old
>> enough.
>>
>> How well carved or painted is the head you have? What sort of costume? Is
>> the puppet still attached to a bamboo control? (Some from Taiwan had carved
>> wood controls with a colorful plastic covered wire hook).
>>
>> By any chance do you have a photo of the puppet?
>>
>> Hope this helps.
>>
>> Alan Cook
>>  ------------------------------
>> *From:* gcbrown-AT-asianappraisals.com
>> *Sent:* Monday, May 11, 2009 10:48 AM
>> *To:* mail-AT-PuppetryMuseum.org
>> *Subject:* Question about a Chinese Marionette
>>
>>  Hello,
>> =EF=BF=BD
>>  I am working on a Chinese marionette of a little girl, dating to the
>> early to mid 20th century from China. I am a certified appraiser who
>> specializes in Asian Art and Antiques, however, I have never valued a
>> Chinese marionette before. What I am wondering is, the head appears to be
>> carved out of rosewood or what is known in China as Huang Hua Li wood. I
>> would have expected them to be carved out of a lesser wood like Chinese Elm
>> or Pine, etc... Generally, Huang Hua Li and Rose woods are important and
>> expensive woods that only the upper classes would have had the money for.
>> Can you help me to understand why this wood would have been used in this
>> case by a marionette maker. Maybe it was common to do this, maybe not. If
>> you are not sure, can you suggest anyone else I can contact please?
>> =EF=BF=BD
>>  Thank you very much, Greg.
>> =EF=BF=BD
>> ___________________________________________________________
>> =EF=BF=BD
>>  "Trust but verify"
>> :Ronald Regan
>> =EF=BF=BD
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>
>
> --
> "The Taoist sage has no ambitions, therefore he can never fail. He who
> never fails always succeeds. And he who always succeeds is all- powerful."
> :Lao Tzu, Dai De Jing.
>
> "One must never be satisfied doing only what one can; rather one must
> always do what one really cannot." :Niels Bohr. =EF=BF=BD
>
>


-- 
"The Taoist sage has no ambitions, therefore he can never fail. He who never
fails always succeeds. And he who always succeeds is all- powerful." :Lao
Tzu, Dai De Jing.

"One must never be satisfied doing only what one can; rather one must always
do what one really cannot." :Niels Bohr.

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