From: "William Hennes" <williamhennes-AT-charter.net>
To: <puptcrit-AT-puptcrit.org>
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 2010 15:47:01 -0800
Subject: Re: [Puptcrit] Is "Avatar" a puppet show?
Agreed. Next question, what is a puppet?
Best,
William
----- Original Message -----
From: "Susan Wall Kronenberg" <susan-AT-carouselpuppets.com>
To: <puptcrit-AT-puptcrit.org>
Sent: Monday, January 11, 2010 1:31 PM
Subject: Re: [Puptcrit] Is "Avatar" a puppet show?
> Not saying that at all. I'm saying that a puppeteer needs a puppet.
>
>
>
> At 04:18 PM 1/11/2010, you wrote:
>>So puppeteers are not actors and they are not making their puppets act?
>>
>>Best,
>>
>>William
>>
>>----- Original Message -----
>>From: "Susan Wall Kronenberg" <susan-AT-carouselpuppets.com>
>>To: <puptcrit-AT-puptcrit.org>
>>Sent: Monday, January 11, 2010 12:47 PM
>>Subject: Re: [Puptcrit] Is "Avatar" a puppet show?
>>
>>
>> > Again, that was not a puppet performance -- that was an actor in a
>> > suit. I am not diminishing Andy Serkis' work. He did a fine acting
>> > job as Gollum. But then in was an ACTING job. Yes, he had to imagine
>> > a lot of his surroundings and his character, but actors are asked to
>> > do that all the time. Illustrators went on to enhance the
>> > performance with CGI.
>> >
>> > Puppeteers are consciously manipulating some thing. That's what
>> > makes us puppeteers.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > At 11:57 AM 1/11/2010, you wrote:
>> >>If we wanted to think of motion capture in terms of puppetry, and
>> >>specifically in terms of Andy Serkis's work in "Lord of the Rings,"
>> >>Serkis,
>> >>dressed in his motion capture suit, would be considered the puppeteer.
>> >>
>> >>I'm not sure about your outside/inside distinction--I agree that
>> >>puppeteers
>> >>"work from the outside - in," but we don't always see our puppets,
>> >>sometimes
>> >>we don't look at them, and instead sense what we are doing with them
>> >>with
>> >>our bodies...
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>On 1/11/10 11:32 AM, "Susan Wall Kronenberg"
>> >><susan-AT-carouselpuppets.com>
>> >>wrote:
>> >>
>> >> > Let me ask you this...who is the puppeteer? When an actor works, he
>> >> > doesn't see himself. He is working from the inside, looking
>> >> > out. Puppeteers have a different perspective. We see our puppets,
>> >> > and work from the outside - in. We put our emotions and/or skills
>> >> > ON
>> >> > the object or the puppet.
>> >> >
>> >> > Susan
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > At 10:14 AM 1/11/2010, you wrote:
>> >> >> I can assert that motion capture is puppetry (and recall that
>> >> "puppet" is in
>> >> >> fact the work that Andy Serkis and company did use when creating
>> >> >> the
>> >> >> movements for Gollum in "Lord of the Rings"). Susan can also
>> >> >> assert
>> >> >> unequivocally that the motion capture in "Avatar" was _not_
>> >> puppetry--that's
>> >> >> fine: we disagree. The important thing is to consider and
>> >> >> understand
>> >> >> how,
>> >> >> for example, motion capture in "Avatar" is related to what Art
>> >> >> Clokey
>> >> >> was
>> >> >> doing with stop motion, and what Clokey, Ray Harryhausen, George
>> >> >> Pal,
>> >> >> and
>> >> >> Ishiro Honda ("Godzilla") among others, were doing earlier as well,
>> >> >> moving
>> >> >> puppets and objects in live or stop-motion to make movies.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Also, we need to be accurate about all this stuff in order to
>> >> >> understand
>> >> >> it--the "Avatar" performers were _not_ wearing "digital costumes"
>> >> >> at
>> >> >> all--they were wearing quite real costumes that allowed their
>> >> >> movements to
>> >> >> be transformed into the movement of digital imagery...
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> jb
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> On 1/10/10 8:48 AM, "Susan Wall Kronenberg"
>> >> >> <susan-AT-carouselpuppets.com>
>> >> >> wrote:
>> >> >>
>> >> >>> There is no puppetry in Avatar. The actors were wearing digital
>> >> >>> costumes. Does that make them puppeteers? No.
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> At 11:17 AM 1/8/2010, you wrote:
>> >> >>>> Why it makes sense to expand our definitions of puppetry:
>> >> >>>> - avoid parochialism
>> >> >>>> - keep up with the innovations in object performance such as
>> >> >>>> motion capture and special effects
>> >> >>>> - be able to understand in connect to the global history of
>> >> >>>> puppetry, which touches all continents and societies.
>> >> >>>>
>> >> >>>> Whether or not the term "puppet" is used for all these forms of
>> >> >>>> performance, it is important to keep in mind that they are all
>> >> >>>> related, all share the same dynamics of human/object
>> >> >>>> relationships
>> >> >>>> and human manipulation of the material world.
>> >> >>>>
>> >> >>>> A problem contemporary culture faces is a lack of a sense of
>> >> >>>> history; the history of projected images on a screen is generally
>> >> >>>> thought to begin in the late 1800s, when in fact it goes back to
>> >> >>>> the
>> >> >>>> origins of shadow theater many centuries earlier. Mass culture
>> >> >>>> is
>> >> >>>> unable to distinguish between the digital images presented to us
>> >> >>>> in
>> >> >>>> "Avatar" and the performers who make those digital objects
>> >> >>>> (projected images in the movie theater) move.
>> >> >>>>
>> >> >>>> Take a look at the caption for an image from the movie in a New
>> >> >>>> York
>> >> >>>> Times review
>> >> >>>>
>> (http://movies.nytimes.com/2009/12/18/movies/18avatar.html?ref=movies).
>> >> >>>> We are looking at a digital construction, but the caption says
>> >> >>>> "Zoe
>> >> >>>> Saldana plays the warrior Neytiri in 'Avatar.'" A sense of the
>> >> >>>> dynamics of puppetry would help this situation, and help
>> >> >>>> audiences
>> >> >>>> and critics understand that they are in fact NOT looking at the
>> >> >>>> actress Zoe Saldana at all, but at a digital performing object
>> >> >>>> which
>> >> >>>> was created by a number of different people (including but not
>> >> >>>> limited to Saldana). A sense of the dynamics of puppetry would
>> >> >>>> help
>> >> >>>> people understand what is truly happening in our culture, rather
>> >> >>>> than mislead. It's important that language and popular
>> >> >>>> understanding keep pace with what is actually happening in the
>> >> >> world around
>> >> >>>> us.
>> >> >>>>
>> >> >>>>
>> >> >>>>
>> >> >>>> Dr. John T. Bell
>> >> >>>> Director
>> >> >>>> Ballard Institute and Museum of Puppetry
>> >> >>>> University of Connecticut
>> >> >>>> 6 Bourn Place Unit 5212
>> >> >>>> Storrs, Connecticut 06269-5212
>> >> >>>> office: 860 486 0806
>> >> >>>> cell: 617 599 3250
>> >> >>>> www.bimp.uconn.edu
>> >> >>>>
>> >> >>>> To make a contribution to the Ballard Institute and Museum of
>> >> >>>> Puppetry, please go to
>> >> >>>> https://secure.ga4.org/01/uconn_foundation_giving, and select
>> >> >>>> "Ballard Puppetry Museum" from the "Purpose" list. Thanks for
>> >> >> your support!
>> >> >>>>
>> >> >>>>
>> >> >>>> -----Original Message-----
>> >> >>>> From: puptcrit-bounces-AT-puptcrit.org
>> >> >>>> [mailto:puptcrit-bounces-AT-puptcrit.org] On Behalf Of Christopher
>> >> >>>> Hudert
>> >> >>>> Sent: Friday, January 08, 2010 10:45 AM
>> >> >>>> To: puptcrit-AT-puptcrit.org
>> >> >>>> Subject: Re: [Puptcrit] Is "Avatar" a puppet show?
>> >> >>>>
>> >> >>>> Interesting discussion. Sort of.
>> >> >>>>
>> >> >>>> Seems we bat around the same battered ball, at times, and wonder
>> >> >>>> why
>> >> >>>> the game doesn't change. For some, maybe it doesn't have to
>> >> >>>> change,
>> >> >>>> for
>> >> >>>> others it does need to change. Baird's classic, conventional,
>> >> >>>> catch-all
>> >> >>>> definition of a puppet (An inanimate object made to move before
>> >> >>>> an
>> >> >>>> audience) is exactly that - classic, conventional, and catch-all.
>> >> >>>> It
>> >> >>>> obviously leaves out some essential parts while opening the door
>> >> >>>> to
>> >> >>>> debate, and seemingly opening a window for new future things.
>> >> >>>> Subversive on his part? Perhaps.
>> >> >>>>
>> >> >>>> In some of the examples given here recently, adhering strictly
>> >> >>>> to
>> >> >>>> the
>> >> >>>> Baird definition that rock being made to roll down the hill is a
>> >> >>>> puppet
>> >> >>>> if there is anyone watching. And a race car driven around the
>> >> >>>> track
>> >> >>>> has
>> >> >>>> an audience and is an inanimate object made to move, thus a
>> >> >>>> puppet.
>> >> >>>> But
>> >> >>>> those two things, and many others, leave out many of the elements
>> >> >>>> of
>> >> >>>> puppetry - especially (but not exclusively) the intent to
>> >> >>>> entertain.
>> >> >>>> So, I don't think Baird intended his definition to be the end all
>> >> >>>> of
>> >> >>>> debate of what a puppet may be, but only meant to define in a
>> >> >>>> general
>> >> >>>> sense what a puppet is, conventionally. It is a broad brush he
>> >> >>>> painted
>> >> >>>> with, and deliberately so, I think.
>> >> >>>>
>> >> >>>> So, is stop motion, mo-cap, WALDO, etc. puppetry? I think the
>> >> >>>> answer
>> >> >>>> is
>> >> >>>> definitely yes AND no. Perhaps in their early stages they were
>> >> >>>> the
>> >> >>>> brides of puppetry, married into the family. The offspring
>> >> >>>> definitely
>> >> >>>> have traits of being a puppet, and traits of not being a puppet.
>> >> >>>> Whether they are puppets or it is puppetry will depend on an
>> >> >>>> individual's perspective and how many traits are shared - which
>> >> >>>> side
>> >> >>>> of
>> >> >>>> the family tree the branch seems to be on, so to speak.
>> >> >>>>
>> >> >>>> Who and what are puppeteers? Are the puppeteers, dancers,
>> >> >>>> mimes,
>> >> >>>> clowns, and actors who do the movement studies for animation
>> >> >>>> puppeteers? They do move and manipulate images - though mostly
>> >> >>>> indirectly. Or is it only the animators? Or both, or neither? Are
>> >> >>>> the
>> >> >>>> vets and so on who use bird puppets to feed young wild birds
>> >> >>>> puppeteers? Are therapists who utilize puppets within their
>> >> >>>> therapy
>> >> >>>> puppeteers, or are they merely using a tool? They do have and use
>> >> >>>> a
>> >> >>>> puppet. What about the child who plays with puppet, even going so
>> >> >>>> far
>> >> >>>> as to do a simple scenario for their parents, siblings or
>> >> >>>> friends?
>> >> >>>> Does
>> >> >>>> simply being the one who moves the inanimate object make one a
>> >> >>>> puppeteer? Or is there more than that to being a puppeteer? Where
>> >> >>>> is
>> >> >>>> the line drawn in the sand?
>> >> >>>>
>> >> >>>> And what is a puppetry artist or master? There are those who
>> >> >>>> are
>> >> >>>> considered one or both. Those artists and masters have attained
>> >> >>>> an
>> >> >>>> elevated level in the field, for the most part, because of their
>> >> >>>> devotion to one particular area, marionettes or hand puppets for
>> >> >>>> instance. I don't count myself among them, at least not in the
>> >> >>>> conventional sense. I have chosen to be a generalist, to work in
>> >> >>>> several areas of puppetry and other forms of entertainment as
>> >> >>>> well.
>> >> >>>> That pretty much means I will never master any one thing, but I
>> >> >>>> have
>> >> >>>> done a more than passable job of blending several things into a
>> >> >>>> pretty
>> >> >>>> decent show (or so I am told.) Will I ever be considered a master
>> >> >>>> or
>> >> >>>> an
>> >> >>>> artist? And if so, by who? My peers? My audiences? The critics?
>> >> >>>> (Ha
>> >> >>>> ha
>> >> >>>> ha, right, like critics are going to show up for a "kid's show!"
>> >> >>>> Oh
>> >> >>>> boy, let me stop and wipe the tears of laughter from my eyes...
>> >> >>>> Sorry,
>> >> >>>> where were we?) While I admit it would be nice, it is not what
>> >> >>>> drives
>> >> >>>> me. What drives those who have achieved, or seek to achieve, the
>> >> >>>> level
>> >> >>>> of artist or master? Is it the desire to reach said level, or is
>> >> >>>> reaching a level the byproduct of some other desire, or is it
>> >> >>>> simply
>> >> >>>> what we label those who's work we look up to? Is one person's
>> >> >>>> master
>> >> >>>> another person's hack, and vice versa?
>> >> >>>>
>> >> >>>> Does the role of puppet and puppeteer imply, maybe even
>> >> >>>> require,
>> >> >>>> some
>> >> >>>> sort of intent to entertain in some way? Does that entertainment
>> >> >>>> have
>> >> >>>> to have some sort of story to it?
>> >> >>>>
>> >> >>>> I don't know all of the answers, and I am not even sure of all
>> >> >>>> of
>> >> >>>> the
>> >> >>>> questions, but I do think that the ironic paradoxical aphorism is
>> >> >>>> true:
>> >> >>>> there are absolutely no absolutes. We can discuss and debate
>> >> >>>> until
>> >> >>>> the
>> >> >>>> next child, step child, or adopted child comes into the puppetry
>> >> >>>> family, then begin the debate again, and we still won't reach any
>> >> >>>> total
>> >> >>>> definition or agreement. In the end, it seems to come down to a
>> >> >>>> label
>> >> >>>> that we can apply that gives a general mutual understanding of
>> >> >>>> what
>> >> >>>> something or someone is. As always, some will agree and some will
>> >> >>>> disagree, but that's okay with me. The discussion makes us think
>> >> >>>> and
>> >> >>>> rethink. But I confess, sometimes it makes my brain tired. Like
>> >> >>>> now.
>> >> >>>> So
>> >> >>>> I'm done.
>> >> >>>>
>> >> >>>> Christopher
>> >> >>>>
>> >> >>>> _______________________________________________
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>> >> >> 01/11/10 02:35:00
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