Date: Fri, 22 Jan 2010 12:13:08 -0500 From: Hobey Ford <hobeyone-AT-gmail.com> To: puptcrit-AT-puptcrit.org Subject: Re: [Puptcrit] La Traviata gypsy chorus animation No I'm wrong. I was on the board when we took on filmed puppetry as a citation category. I don't know what fools decided on stop animation. :o) On Fri, Jan 22, 2010 at 11:59 AM, Hobey Ford <hobeyone-AT-gmail.com> wrote: > Whoops, I think I was on the board of UNIMA when stop animation was > considered at category for citations. I don't think we spent too much > arguement on it as I remember it being an agreeable group. > > On Fri, Jan 22, 2010 at 11:56 AM, Hobey Ford <hobeyone-AT-gmail.com> wrote: > >> I would argue that puppetry on film is still puppetry. If it was a >> filming of puppeteers who at the time were manipulating the puppets in real >> time, it is then puppetry. It can be enhanced through film techniques and >> is essentially part of the art of film, but the performance which is filmed >> is essentially puppetry. My arguement about real time performance has to do >> with whether the manipulation was achieved in real time. I have no >> arguement with filmed puppetry, but instead the notion that stop animation >> can be called puppetry. They might use a puppet to create the stop >> animation, like in Mr Fox (which I get to see at the $3 pizza theater with >> beer made on the premises) but if they are using stop animation, they are >> not doing puppetry in my mind, they are doing stop animation. I have a clip >> from Turtle Island Tales which I remade for video. >> http://www.hobeyford.com/video/turtle-island-tales >> The piece was produced by filming the shadow puppet on a shadow screen. >> Then the shadow puppet was keyed out isolating the shadow image. Then I >> used motion graphics to create movement and distance of the shadow in the >> frame. The background was also motion graphics. Is it puppetry? I would >> say it is a combination of puppetry and animation. It can't be called >> simply puppetry or shadow puppetry. I see a distinction. much of the >> illusion of the piece was created on my computer through motion graphics. I >> essentially animated aspects of it and puppeteered other aspects. I was >> responding to my own performance in real time as I filmed it, so it is both >> animation and puppetry, but not purely "a puppet show". Any successful >> puppet film has taken into account the art of filmmaking. Simply setting up >> a camera and walking away doesn't cut it. "Dark Crystal" is not a puppet >> show, it is a film made with puppetry. >> >> One of the reasons I find these distinctions interesting and troubling at >> times is UNIMA's category of stop animation as puppetry. I think giving >> "Nightmare before Christmas" a puppetry citation is misleading, however you >> feel about the movie. Compare it with Dark Crystal which was filmed >> puppetry. They are two different things. Who decided animation was >> puppetry on the UNIMA board? I think our musings are educated but if we >> sent down edicts of our opinions would that be correct? I don't resent the >> fact that UNIMA considers animation puppetry, I just feel like it is a valid >> thought to reconsider. I find it fascinating in fact... What is puppetry? >> In the end I realize that definitons are subjective and meaningless at a >> certain level, but we do use them in talking about our artform which makes >> them important to us. >> You can probably tell also that I am not working today which gives me time >> to contemplate such minutia. >> >> >> On Fri, Jan 22, 2010 at 11:14 AM, Steve Abrams <sapuppets-AT-gmail.com>wrote: >> >>> M, thanks for posting the clip. It made me hungry >>> >>> My friend Hobey is eloquent and his magician analogy is strong one. >>> Hobey uses the phrase "breaking away from real time." >>> >>> All film (except for unedited documentary footage) breaks away from real >>> time. >>> The great performances of the cinema are nothing like great performances >>> in >>> a theatre. >>> I don't think anyone would suggest that film acting is not acting. >>> >>> Most of the music that we listen to is produced in a studio where it is >>> clipped and snipped and augmented in all sorts of magical ways. There is >>> a >>> whole realm of digitally produced music. >>> I don't think anyone would suggest that studio musicians are somehow not >>> really musicians. >>> >>> I truly deeply love live performance- there is nothing in the world quite >>> like it, but I am not convinced that live performance defines the borders >>> of >>> puppetry anymore than it does for actors or musicians >>> >>> Rolande wrote that "we play with their perception, their attitudes, their >>> attention and focus." >>> This is certainly true in live performance, but doesnt all art do those >>> things? >>> Steve >>> >>> On Fri, Jan 22, 2010 at 8:22 AM, Hobey Ford <hobeyone-AT-gmail.com> wrote: >>> >>> > Thanks Malgosia, That was wonderful! >>> > I have to comment on puppetry vs animation >>> > >>> > It seems to me that one of the differences of animation and puppetry >>> is >>> > the animation's lack of restraints to have a character do or be >>> anything. >>> > It is almost magic in comparison to a puppetry. For instance morphing >>> into >>> > a flower as the characters do in this piece. It seems to me one of the >>> > tenants or attributes of puppetry is that the figure is transformed >>> into a >>> > living being through the suggestive manipulation of the puppeteer. >>> There >>> > is >>> > a physical limit between the possibility of "life" and the puppets >>> > inanimate >>> > nature. It is the puppeteers manipulation in real time that becomes >>> the >>> > bridge between "inanimate" and ":the illusion of life". I would >>> suggest >>> > that animations advantage of being able to stop time and to modify the >>> > figure is the actual difference between puppeteering and animating. >>> Its >>> > what makes a puppeteers skill so unique. It is I suggest the unique >>> > difference. The animator is also brilliant in their own way. But they >>> > have >>> > in their tool chest something we don't have which is breaking from real >>> > time. Animation and puppetry have different definitions, different >>> > training, different communities and they are closely related but >>> unique. >>> > >>> > If somehow I have a magic wand and can bring a pair of scissors to life >>> to >>> > dance a ballet on the table. Is that puppetry? I would say that there >>> is >>> > a >>> > point at which an animatronic or animation employ special effects that >>> > "fudge" on the definition, for the figure is no longer brought to life >>> > through the cycle of: "puppeteer-object- manipulation-observation- >>> imagined >>> > life" another "magic" element is added. It like training wheels on a >>> > bicycle, an added dimension that eliminates the necessity to know how >>> to >>> > ride a bike. Flying around a room is different than flying around a >>> room >>> > on >>> > a cable. It seems to me that when the object's manipulation is >>> enhanced by >>> > means outside the puppeteers control in real time that it becomes >>> > animation. Animation is not a bad word it is just different to me than >>> > puppetry, related but different. The puppeteers unique abilty is a >>> skill >>> > at >>> > being the bridge between animate and inanimate in real time in creating >>> the >>> > illusion of life. The animator has to imagine their figures life and >>> > render >>> > it, but the animator break apart time to pull off the illusion. >>> Another >>> > perplexing analogy would be the magician. Is it truly "magic" if the >>> > magician stops the camera and removes the girl from inside the box, >>> then >>> > restarts the camera. No it is a portrayal of magic but the skill of >>> the >>> > magician is their illusion in real time, I would say. Does that >>> argument >>> > make sense or hold water? >>> > >>> > On Thu, Jan 21, 2010 at 9:11 PM, malgosia askanas <ma-AT-panix.com> >>> wrote: >>> > >>> > > Don't know who did this(there are no credits), but it's quite funny: >>> > > >>> > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ldD2eKSZMWg >>> > > _______________________________________________ >>> > > List address: puptcrit-AT-puptcrit.org >>> > > Admin interface: http://lists.puptcrit.org/mailman/listinfo/puptcrit >>> > > Archives: http://www.driftline.org >>> > > >>> > _______________________________________________ >>> > List address: puptcrit-AT-puptcrit.org >>> > Admin interface: http://lists.puptcrit.org/mailman/listinfo/puptcrit >>> > Archives: http://www.driftline.org >>> > >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List address: puptcrit-AT-puptcrit.org >>> Admin interface: http://lists.puptcrit.org/mailman/listinfo/puptcrit >>> Archives: http://www.driftline.org >>> >> >> > _______________________________________________ List address: puptcrit-AT-puptcrit.org Admin interface: http://lists.puptcrit.org/mailman/listinfo/puptcrit Archives: http://www.driftline.org
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