File puptcrit/puptcrit.1001, message 402


Date: Fri, 22 Jan 2010 12:13:08 -0500
From: Hobey Ford <hobeyone-AT-gmail.com>
To: puptcrit-AT-puptcrit.org
Subject: Re: [Puptcrit] La Traviata gypsy chorus animation


No I'm wrong.  I was on the board when we took on filmed puppetry as a
citation category.  I don't know what fools decided on stop animation. :o)

On Fri, Jan 22, 2010 at 11:59 AM, Hobey Ford <hobeyone-AT-gmail.com> wrote:

> Whoops, I think I was on the board of UNIMA when stop animation was
> considered at category for citations.  I don't think we spent too much
> arguement on it as I remember it being an agreeable group.
>
> On Fri, Jan 22, 2010 at 11:56 AM, Hobey Ford <hobeyone-AT-gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> I would argue that puppetry on film is still puppetry.  If it was a
>> filming of puppeteers who at the time were manipulating the puppets in real
>> time, it is then puppetry.  It can be enhanced through film techniques and
>> is essentially part of the art of film, but the performance which is filmed
>> is essentially puppetry.  My arguement about real time performance has to do
>> with whether the manipulation was  achieved in real time.  I have no
>> arguement with filmed puppetry, but instead the notion that stop animation
>> can be called puppetry.  They might use a puppet to create the stop
>> animation, like in Mr Fox (which I get to see at the $3 pizza theater with
>> beer made on the premises) but if they are using stop animation, they are
>> not doing puppetry in my mind, they are doing stop animation.  I have a clip
>> from Turtle Island Tales which I remade for video.
>> http://www.hobeyford.com/video/turtle-island-tales
>> The piece was produced by filming the shadow puppet on a shadow screen.
>> Then the shadow puppet was keyed out isolating the shadow image.  Then I
>> used motion graphics to create movement and distance of the shadow in the
>> frame.  The background was also motion graphics.  Is it puppetry?  I would
>> say it is a combination of puppetry and animation.  It can't be called
>> simply puppetry or shadow puppetry.  I see a distinction.  much of the
>> illusion of the piece was created on my computer through motion graphics.  I
>> essentially animated aspects of it and puppeteered other aspects.  I was
>> responding to my own performance in real time as I filmed it, so it is both
>> animation and puppetry, but not purely "a puppet show".  Any successful
>> puppet film has taken into account the art of filmmaking.  Simply setting up
>> a camera and walking away doesn't cut it.  "Dark Crystal" is not a puppet
>> show, it is a film made with puppetry.
>>
>> One of the reasons I find these distinctions interesting and troubling at
>> times is UNIMA's category of stop animation as puppetry.  I think giving
>> "Nightmare before Christmas" a puppetry citation is misleading, however you
>> feel about the movie. Compare it with Dark Crystal which was filmed
>> puppetry.  They are two different things.  Who decided animation was
>> puppetry on the UNIMA board?  I think our musings are educated but if we
>> sent down edicts of our opinions would that be correct?  I don't resent the
>> fact that UNIMA considers animation puppetry, I just feel like it is a valid
>> thought to reconsider.  I find it fascinating in fact... What is puppetry?
>> In the end I realize that definitons are subjective and meaningless at a
>> certain level, but we do use them in talking about our artform which makes
>> them important to us.
>> You can probably tell also that I am not working today which gives me time
>> to contemplate such minutia.
>>
>>
>> On Fri, Jan 22, 2010 at 11:14 AM, Steve Abrams <sapuppets-AT-gmail.com>wrote:
>>
>>> M, thanks for posting the clip. It made me hungry
>>>
>>> My friend Hobey is eloquent and his magician analogy is strong one.
>>> Hobey uses the phrase "breaking away from real time."
>>>
>>> All film (except for unedited documentary footage) breaks away from real
>>> time.
>>> The great performances of the cinema are nothing like great performances
>>> in
>>> a theatre.
>>> I don't think anyone would suggest that film acting is not acting.
>>>
>>> Most of the music that we listen to is produced in a studio where it is
>>> clipped and snipped and augmented in all sorts of magical ways. There is
>>> a
>>> whole realm of digitally produced music.
>>> I don't think anyone would suggest that studio musicians are somehow not
>>> really musicians.
>>>
>>> I truly deeply love live performance- there is nothing in the world quite
>>> like it, but I am not convinced that live performance defines the borders
>>> of
>>> puppetry anymore than it does for actors or musicians
>>>
>>> Rolande wrote that "we play with their perception, their attitudes, their
>>> attention and focus."
>>> This is certainly true in live performance, but doesnt all art do those
>>> things?
>>> Steve
>>>
>>> On Fri, Jan 22, 2010 at 8:22 AM, Hobey Ford <hobeyone-AT-gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> > Thanks Malgosia, That was wonderful!
>>> > I have to comment on puppetry vs animation
>>> >
>>> > It seems to me that one of the differences  of  animation and puppetry
>>> is
>>> > the animation's  lack of restraints to have a character do or be
>>> anything.
>>> > It is almost magic in comparison to a puppetry.  For instance morphing
>>> into
>>> > a flower as the characters do in this piece.  It seems to me one of the
>>> > tenants or attributes of puppetry is that the figure is transformed
>>> into a
>>> > living being through the suggestive manipulation of the puppeteer.
>>>  There
>>> > is
>>> > a physical limit between the possibility of "life" and the puppets
>>> > inanimate
>>> > nature.  It is the puppeteers manipulation in real time that becomes
>>> the
>>> > bridge between "inanimate" and ":the illusion of life".  I would
>>> suggest
>>> > that animations advantage of being able to stop time and to modify the
>>> > figure is the actual difference between puppeteering and animating.
>>>  Its
>>> > what makes a puppeteers skill so unique.  It is I suggest the unique
>>> > difference.  The animator is also brilliant in their own way.  But they
>>> > have
>>> > in their tool chest something we don't have which is breaking from real
>>> > time.  Animation and puppetry have different definitions, different
>>> > training, different communities and they are closely related but
>>> unique.
>>> >
>>> > If somehow I have a magic wand and can bring a pair of scissors to life
>>> to
>>> > dance a ballet on the table.  Is that puppetry?  I would say that there
>>> is
>>> > a
>>> > point at which an animatronic or animation employ special effects that
>>> > "fudge" on the definition, for the figure is no longer brought to life
>>> > through the cycle of: "puppeteer-object- manipulation-observation-
>>> imagined
>>> > life" another "magic" element is added.  It like training wheels on a
>>> > bicycle, an added dimension that eliminates the necessity to know how
>>> to
>>> > ride a bike.  Flying around a room is different than flying around a
>>> room
>>> > on
>>> > a cable.  It seems to me that when the object's manipulation is
>>> enhanced by
>>> > means outside the puppeteers control in real time that it becomes
>>> > animation.  Animation is not a bad word it is just different to me than
>>> > puppetry, related but different.  The puppeteers unique abilty is a
>>> skill
>>> > at
>>> > being the bridge between animate and inanimate in real time in creating
>>> the
>>> > illusion of life.  The animator has to imagine their figures life and
>>> > render
>>> > it, but the animator break apart time to pull off the illusion.
>>>  Another
>>> > perplexing analogy would be the magician. Is it truly "magic" if the
>>> > magician  stops the camera and removes the girl from inside the box,
>>> then
>>> > restarts the camera. No it is  a portrayal of magic but the skill of
>>> the
>>> > magician is their illusion in real time, I would say.  Does that
>>> argument
>>> > make sense or hold water?
>>> >
>>> > On Thu, Jan 21, 2010 at 9:11 PM, malgosia askanas <ma-AT-panix.com>
>>> wrote:
>>> >
>>> > > Don't know who did this(there are no credits), but it's quite funny:
>>> > >
>>> > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ldD2eKSZMWg
>>> > > _______________________________________________
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>>>
>>
>>
>
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