From: "William Hennes" <williamhennes-AT-charter.net>
To: <puptcrit-AT-puptcrit.org>
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 2010 14:24:16 -0800
Subject: Re: [Puptcrit] "Avatar" is a puppet show!


I agree with you Greg.  For me I think a performance manipulating an object 
using a part of my body is puppetry and I am the puppeteer.

Best,

William

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Gregory Ballora" <gregballora-AT-sbcglobal.net>
To: <puptcrit-AT-puptcrit.org>
Sent: Wednesday, January 06, 2010 2:06 PM
Subject: Re: [Puptcrit] "Avatar" is a puppet show!


> We may just be getting into semantics, but the actor in the second 
> scenario is still puppeteering to a degree, he is probably just not doing 
> it well. If he is not conscious of manipulating the CG character, He of 
> She is only playing with half his deck of cards...
>
> Trying to lay down a line between when yo are puppeteering and when you 
> are not is pretty dicey.
> And ultimately, it comes down to whether or not it is a good performance, 
> not what it is classified as.
> GB
>
> On Jan 6, 2010, at 1:46 PM, Preston Foerder wrote:
>
>> OK, I'll take a stab at it. If, in your performance, you are moving in 
>> such
>> a way that you are consciously manipulating the digital image (whether 
>> you
>> can see it or not at the time of performance), as Greg does, as the 
>> Henson
>> system does, as Andy Serkis was doing with Golem and King Kong, then it 
>> is
>> puppetry. If you are acting in the same way you would be acting if there
>> wasn't a CG character (avatar?) and someone else is overlaying a digital
>> image on your performance then it isn't puppetry.  This I think, although 
>> I
>> could be wrong, is what was done in Avatar.
>>
>> Preston
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: puptcrit-bounces-AT-puptcrit.org 
>> [mailto:puptcrit-bounces-AT-puptcrit.org]
>> On Behalf Of Gregory Ballora
>> Sent: Wednesday, January 06, 2010 4:23 PM
>> To: puptcrit-AT-puptcrit.org
>> Subject: Re: [Puptcrit] "Avatar" is a puppet show!
>>
>> Hobey, I don't mean this to sound confrontational, but you sound like
>> someone who has never done any Motion Capture, or as we have been trying 
>> to
>> "re-term" it here in LA, Performance Capture.
>> I haven't seen the film yet, and I am sure I wouldn't call it a puppet 
>> show
>> either, but I don't think you can term Gollum merely "electronic 
>> make-up". I
>> am quite sure that Andy Serkis had to learn or discover some very
>> interesting technique to pull off that performance, and it is not just 
>> that
>> he is a good actor. He is an actor with a set of special skills, which is
>> really what a puppeteer is by some definition. As an actor that has
>> performed in heavy makeup, and also in full monster suits, I know that I 
>> am
>> essentially puppeteering the makeup. If you don't do that, you are 
>> fighting
>> your own performance. Also, I don't think it makes much sense in this
>> argument you make to say that
>> " They don't understand or have any skill
>>> understanding or meaningful involvement with the art and craft of
>>> puppetry."
>>
>> First of all, you don't really know that do you? Secondly, it doesn't 
>> make
>> much sense in a discussion of whether or not it is puppetry. I have seen
>> plenty of people with a puppet on their arm, or holding a marionette that
>> didn't have any of said skill or understanding either. And to go to your
>> monkey argument, a monkey with a puppet on his hand may not be a 
>> puppeteer,
>> but the puppet is still a puppet. Also, the monkey in a Mo-cap suit will
>> give you just that, motion. It won't be a performance, which is what we
>> would want from a puppet.
>>
>> If you have seen any of the body performers for "Sid the Science Kid" 
>> They
>> are puppeteering with their entire body, and do an amazing job of it.
>> If yo look at Polar express, I think it is creepy because they used 
>> facial
>> trackers on actors (like Tom Hanks) who were just actors. They did their
>> actor job, but didn't really "perform" the faces. They were in effect not
>> puppeteering their faces, and that is a downfall of that form of 
>> performance
>> capture, and I think it is why Henson's digital performance system is so
>> effective.
>>
>> also, when you say:
>>> For me that would require the
>>> actor to be in full control of the digital figure without the aid of
>>> cosmetic animators and the like.
>>
>> That is like saying you are not a puppeteer unless you do all the design,
>> building, painting and costuming on your puppet. Since you yourself do 
>> that,
>> and extremely well, I can see how you would say that, but I don't think 
>> it
>> is fair to say, for instance, that Ronnie Burkett is not a real puppeteer
>> because he had someone else build the costumes, or that Jim Henson was 
>> not a
>> puppeteer because he had someone else work the right hand on Kermit at
>> times...
>>
>> Again, I have to stress, this is not an attack on you Hobey. I hope you 
>> know
>> that I have nothing but high regard and respect for your work. I just 
>> think
>> you are a bit dismissive of this performance style. As to whether or not 
>> it
>> is "puppetry" or not, I think we agree that it is at least an "allied 
>> art".
>> Mime is such a loaded term for me that I cannot divorce it from French 
>> guys
>> in striped shirts. That is my own shortsightedness at work, and I don't
>> think I really know what the term means outside of  "Pip" I think I had
>> better look into that soon.
>> Respectfully
>> Greg Ballora
>>
>>
>> On Jan 6, 2010, at 11:16 AM, Hobey Ford wrote:
>>
>>> I think it is fair to say that "Avatar" is related to puppetry, but I
>>> wouldn't go as far as calling it puppetry or a puppet show (though it
>>> isn't an important distinction and really is just semantics).  The
>>> motion capture technology used here and with Golem in Lord of the
>>> rings is based on an actors performance which is electronically
>>> transferred to a computer graphic.  An actor in costume and make-up
>>> isn't a puppet and they are essentially doing the same as the actors
>>> in motion capture.  I propose that they are actors portraying a role
>>> with electronic make-up.  They don't understand or have any skill
>>> understanding or meaningful involvement with the art and craft of
>>> puppetry.  They are very good actors (maybe) who are having a special
>>> effect laid upon them digitally.  I think this an interesting topic
>>> but I wouldn't argue the point of it being puppetry or not, as
>>> puppetry has always evolved. The "old school" devotees have always
>>> questioned "Is this puppetry?" And clearly the definition of puppetry
>>> needs room to grow, but in this instance my vote is that if it is
>>> puppetry, then that is a pretty big stretch.  I would say Motion
>>> capture is more related to mime or mask theater, possibly body costume
>>> digital puppetry but not puppetry.  For me that would require the
>>> actor to be in full control of the digital figure without the aid of
>>> cosmetic animators and the like.  To use the old analogy of monkey as
>>> artist, a monkey could be dressed in a motion capture suit and
>>> transformed digitally into a different creature, but I would never
>>> call the monkey a puppeteer: if so I am a monkey's uncle.
>>>
>>> On Wed, Jan 6, 2010 at 11:02 AM, Bell, John <john.bell-AT-uconn.edu> wrote:
>>>> I disagree with the idea that "Avatar" is not puppetry: "Avatar" is
>> puppetry, motion capture is puppetry, and we should be excited about that
>> fact.  Motion capture is the movement of the human body in order to 
>> control
>> the movement of an image, an object in performance, and is therefore
>> puppetry.
>>>>
>>>> See for example Andy Serkis's book about his work manipulating the 
>>>> motion
>> capture figure of Gollum in "Lord of the Rings", in which the "p" word 
>> was
>> routinely used by the performers and tech crew to describe what they were
>> doing.
>>>>
>>>> It's important to consider this because otherwise the history of
>> techniques like motion capture is thought to begin about two decades ago,
>> when in fact the philosophy and aesthetics of motion capture go back
>> centuries in the global history of puppet theater.
>>>>
>>>> The frequent captions of "Avatar" press photos which identify the 
>>>> motion
>> capture images in the film as the performers themselves are entirely
>> misleading and are a misunderstanding of the form; as if a caption for a
>> photo of Kermit said "Jim Henson as Kermit."
>>>>
>>>> "Avatar" is a puppet show!  Not a good puppet show dramaturgically,
>> because its depiction of a white guy warrior saving the poor blue people 
>> is
>> hopelessly irrelevant in our world, and because its espousal of extreme
>> violence as the solution to serious problems is not such a good augury; 
>> but
>> a puppet show nonetheless!
>>>>
>>>> Dr. John T. Bell
>>>> Director
>>>> Ballard Institute and Museum of Puppetry
>>>> University of Connecticut
>>>> 6 Bourn Place Unit 5212
>>>> Storrs, Connecticut  06269-5212
>>>> office: 860 486 0806
>>>> cell: 617 599 3250
>>>> www.bimp.uconn.edu
>>>>
>>>> To make a contribution to the Ballard Institute and Museum of Puppetry,
>> please go to
>>>> https://secure.ga4.org/01/uconn_foundation_giving, and select "Ballard
>> Puppetry Museum" from the "Purpose" list.  Thanks for your support!
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: puptcrit-bounces-AT-puptcrit.org
>> [mailto:puptcrit-bounces-AT-puptcrit.org] On Behalf Of Stephen Kaplin
>>>> Sent: Wednesday, January 06, 2010 10:21 AM
>>>> To: puptcrit-AT-puptcrit.org
>>>> Subject: Re: [Puptcrit] Avatar go see it
>>>>
>>>> I think it is extraordinary the way that the new motion capture
>>>> technologies have blurred the boundary between puppet and human
>>>> performer. The puppet becomes more like a skin to the performer than a
>>>> separate performing object. However, that skin is not simply a costume
>>>> one slips on and off-- it is a  digital construct created at great
>>>> expense of money and labour.
>>>>
>>>> But what is interesting is that the intense application of technology,
>>>> (which for most forms of puppetry functions to extend the gap between
>>>> the operator and the performing figure) bring the performer and
>>>> performing object back together in tight embrace.
>>>>
>>>> Don't know if that is enough to make me drop $15 to see the 3-d movie.
>>>>
>>>> Stephen
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Jan 6, 2010, at 12:10 AM, Puppet People wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Hi critters;
>>>>>   Though not techniquely puppets , I would recommend to all in the
>>>>> puppetry world to go and see the movie Avatar. I just saw it and was
>>>>> blown
>>>>> away by the computer graphics and 3-D effect. Also I should add the
>>>>> story is
>>>>> good too.
>>>>>   I know, I know, it's not puppetry but I think that animation is a
>>>>> form
>>>>> of puppetry and the CG stuff that can be done today is amazing. What
>>>>> are
>>>>> your thoughts?
>>>>>
>>>>> Mark
>>>>> The Puppet People
>>>>>
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