From: Vladimir Vasyagin <vasyagin-AT-hotmail.com> To: <puptcrit-AT-puptcrit.org> Date: Wed, 6 Jan 2010 21:10:13 -0500 Subject: Re: [Puptcrit] "Avatar" is a puppet show! If the Brain can manipulate other parts of our bodies - then yes we all are the GREAT puppeteers. Vladimir > From: williamhennes-AT-charter.net > To: puptcrit-AT-puptcrit.org > Date: Wed, 6 Jan 2010 14:24:16 -0800 > Subject: Re: [Puptcrit] "Avatar" is a puppet show! > > I agree with you Greg. For me I think a performance manipulating an object > using a part of my body is puppetry and I am the puppeteer. > > Best, > > William > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Gregory Ballora" <gregballora-AT-sbcglobal.net> > To: <puptcrit-AT-puptcrit.org> > Sent: Wednesday, January 06, 2010 2:06 PM > Subject: Re: [Puptcrit] "Avatar" is a puppet show! > > > > We may just be getting into semantics, but the actor in the second > > scenario is still puppeteering to a degree, he is probably just not doing > > it well. If he is not conscious of manipulating the CG character, He of > > She is only playing with half his deck of cards... > > > > Trying to lay down a line between when yo are puppeteering and when you > > are not is pretty dicey. > > And ultimately, it comes down to whether or not it is a good performance, > > not what it is classified as. > > GB > > > > On Jan 6, 2010, at 1:46 PM, Preston Foerder wrote: > > > >> OK, I'll take a stab at it. If, in your performance, you are moving in > >> such > >> a way that you are consciously manipulating the digital image (whether > >> you > >> can see it or not at the time of performance), as Greg does, as the > >> Henson > >> system does, as Andy Serkis was doing with Golem and King Kong, then it > >> is > >> puppetry. If you are acting in the same way you would be acting if there > >> wasn't a CG character (avatar?) and someone else is overlaying a digital > >> image on your performance then it isn't puppetry. This I think, although > >> I > >> could be wrong, is what was done in Avatar. > >> > >> Preston > >> > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: puptcrit-bounces-AT-puptcrit.org > >> [mailto:puptcrit-bounces-AT-puptcrit.org] > >> On Behalf Of Gregory Ballora > >> Sent: Wednesday, January 06, 2010 4:23 PM > >> To: puptcrit-AT-puptcrit.org > >> Subject: Re: [Puptcrit] "Avatar" is a puppet show! > >> > >> Hobey, I don't mean this to sound confrontational, but you sound like > >> someone who has never done any Motion Capture, or as we have been trying > >> to > >> "re-term" it here in LA, Performance Capture. > >> I haven't seen the film yet, and I am sure I wouldn't call it a puppet > >> show > >> either, but I don't think you can term Gollum merely "electronic > >> make-up". I > >> am quite sure that Andy Serkis had to learn or discover some very > >> interesting technique to pull off that performance, and it is not just > >> that > >> he is a good actor. He is an actor with a set of special skills, which is > >> really what a puppeteer is by some definition. As an actor that has > >> performed in heavy makeup, and also in full monster suits, I know that I > >> am > >> essentially puppeteering the makeup. If you don't do that, you are > >> fighting > >> your own performance. Also, I don't think it makes much sense in this > >> argument you make to say that > >> " They don't understand or have any skill > >>> understanding or meaningful involvement with the art and craft of > >>> puppetry." > >> > >> First of all, you don't really know that do you? Secondly, it doesn't > >> make > >> much sense in a discussion of whether or not it is puppetry. I have seen > >> plenty of people with a puppet on their arm, or holding a marionette that > >> didn't have any of said skill or understanding either. And to go to your > >> monkey argument, a monkey with a puppet on his hand may not be a > >> puppeteer, > >> but the puppet is still a puppet. Also, the monkey in a Mo-cap suit will > >> give you just that, motion. It won't be a performance, which is what we > >> would want from a puppet. > >> > >> If you have seen any of the body performers for "Sid the Science Kid" > >> They > >> are puppeteering with their entire body, and do an amazing job of it. > >> If yo look at Polar express, I think it is creepy because they used > >> facial > >> trackers on actors (like Tom Hanks) who were just actors. They did their > >> actor job, but didn't really "perform" the faces. They were in effect not > >> puppeteering their faces, and that is a downfall of that form of > >> performance > >> capture, and I think it is why Henson's digital performance system is so > >> effective. > >> > >> also, when you say: > >>> For me that would require the > >>> actor to be in full control of the digital figure without the aid of > >>> cosmetic animators and the like. > >> > >> That is like saying you are not a puppeteer unless you do all the design, > >> building, painting and costuming on your puppet. Since you yourself do > >> that, > >> and extremely well, I can see how you would say that, but I don't think > >> it > >> is fair to say, for instance, that Ronnie Burkett is not a real puppeteer > >> because he had someone else build the costumes, or that Jim Henson was > >> not a > >> puppeteer because he had someone else work the right hand on Kermit at > >> times... > >> > >> Again, I have to stress, this is not an attack on you Hobey. I hope you > >> know > >> that I have nothing but high regard and respect for your work. I just > >> think > >> you are a bit dismissive of this performance style. As to whether or not > >> it > >> is "puppetry" or not, I think we agree that it is at least an "allied > >> art". > >> Mime is such a loaded term for me that I cannot divorce it from French > >> guys > >> in striped shirts. That is my own shortsightedness at work, and I don't > >> think I really know what the term means outside of "Pip" I think I had > >> better look into that soon. > >> Respectfully > >> Greg Ballora > >> > >> > >> On Jan 6, 2010, at 11:16 AM, Hobey Ford wrote: > >> > >>> I think it is fair to say that "Avatar" is related to puppetry, but I > >>> wouldn't go as far as calling it puppetry or a puppet show (though it > >>> isn't an important distinction and really is just semantics). The > >>> motion capture technology used here and with Golem in Lord of the > >>> rings is based on an actors performance which is electronically > >>> transferred to a computer graphic. An actor in costume and make-up > >>> isn't a puppet and they are essentially doing the same as the actors > >>> in motion capture. I propose that they are actors portraying a role > >>> with electronic make-up. They don't understand or have any skill > >>> understanding or meaningful involvement with the art and craft of > >>> puppetry. They are very good actors (maybe) who are having a special > >>> effect laid upon them digitally. I think this an interesting topic > >>> but I wouldn't argue the point of it being puppetry or not, as > >>> puppetry has always evolved. The "old school" devotees have always > >>> questioned "Is this puppetry?" And clearly the definition of puppetry > >>> needs room to grow, but in this instance my vote is that if it is > >>> puppetry, then that is a pretty big stretch. I would say Motion > >>> capture is more related to mime or mask theater, possibly body costume > >>> digital puppetry but not puppetry. For me that would require the > >>> actor to be in full control of the digital figure without the aid of > >>> cosmetic animators and the like. To use the old analogy of monkey as > >>> artist, a monkey could be dressed in a motion capture suit and > >>> transformed digitally into a different creature, but I would never > >>> call the monkey a puppeteer: if so I am a monkey's uncle. > >>> > >>> On Wed, Jan 6, 2010 at 11:02 AM, Bell, John <john.bell-AT-uconn.edu> wrote: > >>>> I disagree with the idea that "Avatar" is not puppetry: "Avatar" is > >> puppetry, motion capture is puppetry, and we should be excited about that > >> fact. Motion capture is the movement of the human body in order to > >> control > >> the movement of an image, an object in performance, and is therefore > >> puppetry. > >>>> > >>>> See for example Andy Serkis's book about his work manipulating the > >>>> motion > >> capture figure of Gollum in "Lord of the Rings", in which the "p" word > >> was > >> routinely used by the performers and tech crew to describe what they were > >> doing. > >>>> > >>>> It's important to consider this because otherwise the history of > >> techniques like motion capture is thought to begin about two decades ago, > >> when in fact the philosophy and aesthetics of motion capture go back > >> centuries in the global history of puppet theater. > >>>> > >>>> The frequent captions of "Avatar" press photos which identify the > >>>> motion > >> capture images in the film as the performers themselves are entirely > >> misleading and are a misunderstanding of the form; as if a caption for a > >> photo of Kermit said "Jim Henson as Kermit." > >>>> > >>>> "Avatar" is a puppet show! Not a good puppet show dramaturgically, > >> because its depiction of a white guy warrior saving the poor blue people > >> is > >> hopelessly irrelevant in our world, and because its espousal of extreme > >> violence as the solution to serious problems is not such a good augury; > >> but > >> a puppet show nonetheless! > >>>> > >>>> Dr. John T. Bell > >>>> Director > >>>> Ballard Institute and Museum of Puppetry > >>>> University of Connecticut > >>>> 6 Bourn Place Unit 5212 > >>>> Storrs, Connecticut 06269-5212 > >>>> office: 860 486 0806 > >>>> cell: 617 599 3250 > >>>> www.bimp.uconn.edu > >>>> > >>>> To make a contribution to the Ballard Institute and Museum of Puppetry, > >> please go to > >>>> https://secure.ga4.org/01/uconn_foundation_giving, and select "Ballard > >> Puppetry Museum" from the "Purpose" list. Thanks for your support! > >>>> > >>>> -----Original Message----- > >>>> From: puptcrit-bounces-AT-puptcrit.org > >> [mailto:puptcrit-bounces-AT-puptcrit.org] On Behalf Of Stephen Kaplin > >>>> Sent: Wednesday, January 06, 2010 10:21 AM > >>>> To: puptcrit-AT-puptcrit.org > >>>> Subject: Re: [Puptcrit] Avatar go see it > >>>> > >>>> I think it is extraordinary the way that the new motion capture > >>>> technologies have blurred the boundary between puppet and human > >>>> performer. The puppet becomes more like a skin to the performer than a > >>>> separate performing object. However, that skin is not simply a costume > >>>> one slips on and off-- it is a digital construct created at great > >>>> expense of money and labour. > >>>> > >>>> But what is interesting is that the intense application of technology, > >>>> (which for most forms of puppetry functions to extend the gap between > >>>> the operator and the performing figure) bring the performer and > >>>> performing object back together in tight embrace. > >>>> > >>>> Don't know if that is enough to make me drop $15 to see the 3-d movie. > >>>> > >>>> Stephen > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> On Jan 6, 2010, at 12:10 AM, Puppet People wrote: > >>>> > >>>>> Hi critters; > >>>>> Though not techniquely puppets , I would recommend to all in the > >>>>> puppetry world to go and see the movie Avatar. I just saw it and was > >>>>> blown > >>>>> away by the computer graphics and 3-D effect. Also I should add the > >>>>> story is > >>>>> good too. > >>>>> I know, I know, it's not puppetry but I think that animation is a > >>>>> form > >>>>> of puppetry and the CG stuff that can be done today is amazing. What > >>>>> are > >>>>> your thoughts? > >>>>> > >>>>> Mark > >>>>> The Puppet People > >>>>> > >>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>> List address: puptcrit-AT-puptcrit.org > >>>>> Admin interface: http://lists.puptcrit.org/mailman/listinfo/puptcrit > >>>>> Archives: http://www.driftline.org > >>>> > >>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>> List address: puptcrit-AT-puptcrit.org > >>>> Admin interface: http://lists.puptcrit.org/mailman/listinfo/puptcrit > >>>> Archives: http://www.driftline.org > >>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>> List address: puptcrit-AT-puptcrit.org > >>>> Admin interface: http://lists.puptcrit.org/mailman/listinfo/puptcrit > >>>> Archives: http://www.driftline.org > >>>> > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> List address: puptcrit-AT-puptcrit.org > >>> Admin interface: http://lists.puptcrit.org/mailman/listinfo/puptcrit > >>> Archives: http://www.driftline.org > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> List address: puptcrit-AT-puptcrit.org > >> Admin interface: http://lists.puptcrit.org/mailman/listinfo/puptcrit > >> Archives: http://www.driftline.org > >> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> List address: puptcrit-AT-puptcrit.org > >> Admin interface: http://lists.puptcrit.org/mailman/listinfo/puptcrit > >> Archives: http://www.driftline.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > > List address: puptcrit-AT-puptcrit.org > > Admin interface: http://lists.puptcrit.org/mailman/listinfo/puptcrit > > Archives: http://www.driftline.org > > _______________________________________________ > List address: puptcrit-AT-puptcrit.org > Admin interface: http://lists.puptcrit.org/mailman/listinfo/puptcrit > Archives: http://www.driftline.org _________________________________________________________________ Hotmail: Trusted email with Microsoft=92s powerful SPAM protection. http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/196390706/direct/01/ _______________________________________________ List address: puptcrit-AT-puptcrit.org Admin interface: http://lists.puptcrit.org/mailman/listinfo/puptcrit Archives: http://www.driftline.org
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