File puptcrit/puptcrit.1001, message 55


From: Vladimir Vasyagin <vasyagin-AT-hotmail.com>
To: <puptcrit-AT-puptcrit.org>
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 2010 21:10:13 -0500
Subject: Re: [Puptcrit] "Avatar" is a puppet show!



If the Brain can manipulate other parts of our bodies - then yes we all are the GREAT puppeteers.



Vladimir



 

> From: williamhennes-AT-charter.net
> To: puptcrit-AT-puptcrit.org
> Date: Wed, 6 Jan 2010 14:24:16 -0800
> Subject: Re: [Puptcrit] "Avatar" is a puppet show!
> 
> I agree with you Greg. For me I think a performance manipulating an object 
> using a part of my body is puppetry and I am the puppeteer.
> 
> Best,
> 
> William
> 
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Gregory Ballora" <gregballora-AT-sbcglobal.net>
> To: <puptcrit-AT-puptcrit.org>
> Sent: Wednesday, January 06, 2010 2:06 PM
> Subject: Re: [Puptcrit] "Avatar" is a puppet show!
> 
> 
> > We may just be getting into semantics, but the actor in the second 
> > scenario is still puppeteering to a degree, he is probably just not doing 
> > it well. If he is not conscious of manipulating the CG character, He of 
> > She is only playing with half his deck of cards...
> >
> > Trying to lay down a line between when yo are puppeteering and when you 
> > are not is pretty dicey.
> > And ultimately, it comes down to whether or not it is a good performance, 
> > not what it is classified as.
> > GB
> >
> > On Jan 6, 2010, at 1:46 PM, Preston Foerder wrote:
> >
> >> OK, I'll take a stab at it. If, in your performance, you are moving in 
> >> such
> >> a way that you are consciously manipulating the digital image (whether 
> >> you
> >> can see it or not at the time of performance), as Greg does, as the 
> >> Henson
> >> system does, as Andy Serkis was doing with Golem and King Kong, then it 
> >> is
> >> puppetry. If you are acting in the same way you would be acting if there
> >> wasn't a CG character (avatar?) and someone else is overlaying a digital
> >> image on your performance then it isn't puppetry. This I think, although 
> >> I
> >> could be wrong, is what was done in Avatar.
> >>
> >> Preston
> >>
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: puptcrit-bounces-AT-puptcrit.org 
> >> [mailto:puptcrit-bounces-AT-puptcrit.org]
> >> On Behalf Of Gregory Ballora
> >> Sent: Wednesday, January 06, 2010 4:23 PM
> >> To: puptcrit-AT-puptcrit.org
> >> Subject: Re: [Puptcrit] "Avatar" is a puppet show!
> >>
> >> Hobey, I don't mean this to sound confrontational, but you sound like
> >> someone who has never done any Motion Capture, or as we have been trying 
> >> to
> >> "re-term" it here in LA, Performance Capture.
> >> I haven't seen the film yet, and I am sure I wouldn't call it a puppet 
> >> show
> >> either, but I don't think you can term Gollum merely "electronic 
> >> make-up". I
> >> am quite sure that Andy Serkis had to learn or discover some very
> >> interesting technique to pull off that performance, and it is not just 
> >> that
> >> he is a good actor. He is an actor with a set of special skills, which is
> >> really what a puppeteer is by some definition. As an actor that has
> >> performed in heavy makeup, and also in full monster suits, I know that I 
> >> am
> >> essentially puppeteering the makeup. If you don't do that, you are 
> >> fighting
> >> your own performance. Also, I don't think it makes much sense in this
> >> argument you make to say that
> >> " They don't understand or have any skill
> >>> understanding or meaningful involvement with the art and craft of
> >>> puppetry."
> >>
> >> First of all, you don't really know that do you? Secondly, it doesn't 
> >> make
> >> much sense in a discussion of whether or not it is puppetry. I have seen
> >> plenty of people with a puppet on their arm, or holding a marionette that
> >> didn't have any of said skill or understanding either. And to go to your
> >> monkey argument, a monkey with a puppet on his hand may not be a 
> >> puppeteer,
> >> but the puppet is still a puppet. Also, the monkey in a Mo-cap suit will
> >> give you just that, motion. It won't be a performance, which is what we
> >> would want from a puppet.
> >>
> >> If you have seen any of the body performers for "Sid the Science Kid" 
> >> They
> >> are puppeteering with their entire body, and do an amazing job of it.
> >> If yo look at Polar express, I think it is creepy because they used 
> >> facial
> >> trackers on actors (like Tom Hanks) who were just actors. They did their
> >> actor job, but didn't really "perform" the faces. They were in effect not
> >> puppeteering their faces, and that is a downfall of that form of 
> >> performance
> >> capture, and I think it is why Henson's digital performance system is so
> >> effective.
> >>
> >> also, when you say:
> >>> For me that would require the
> >>> actor to be in full control of the digital figure without the aid of
> >>> cosmetic animators and the like.
> >>
> >> That is like saying you are not a puppeteer unless you do all the design,
> >> building, painting and costuming on your puppet. Since you yourself do 
> >> that,
> >> and extremely well, I can see how you would say that, but I don't think 
> >> it
> >> is fair to say, for instance, that Ronnie Burkett is not a real puppeteer
> >> because he had someone else build the costumes, or that Jim Henson was 
> >> not a
> >> puppeteer because he had someone else work the right hand on Kermit at
> >> times...
> >>
> >> Again, I have to stress, this is not an attack on you Hobey. I hope you 
> >> know
> >> that I have nothing but high regard and respect for your work. I just 
> >> think
> >> you are a bit dismissive of this performance style. As to whether or not 
> >> it
> >> is "puppetry" or not, I think we agree that it is at least an "allied 
> >> art".
> >> Mime is such a loaded term for me that I cannot divorce it from French 
> >> guys
> >> in striped shirts. That is my own shortsightedness at work, and I don't
> >> think I really know what the term means outside of "Pip" I think I had
> >> better look into that soon.
> >> Respectfully
> >> Greg Ballora
> >>
> >>
> >> On Jan 6, 2010, at 11:16 AM, Hobey Ford wrote:
> >>
> >>> I think it is fair to say that "Avatar" is related to puppetry, but I
> >>> wouldn't go as far as calling it puppetry or a puppet show (though it
> >>> isn't an important distinction and really is just semantics). The
> >>> motion capture technology used here and with Golem in Lord of the
> >>> rings is based on an actors performance which is electronically
> >>> transferred to a computer graphic. An actor in costume and make-up
> >>> isn't a puppet and they are essentially doing the same as the actors
> >>> in motion capture. I propose that they are actors portraying a role
> >>> with electronic make-up. They don't understand or have any skill
> >>> understanding or meaningful involvement with the art and craft of
> >>> puppetry. They are very good actors (maybe) who are having a special
> >>> effect laid upon them digitally. I think this an interesting topic
> >>> but I wouldn't argue the point of it being puppetry or not, as
> >>> puppetry has always evolved. The "old school" devotees have always
> >>> questioned "Is this puppetry?" And clearly the definition of puppetry
> >>> needs room to grow, but in this instance my vote is that if it is
> >>> puppetry, then that is a pretty big stretch. I would say Motion
> >>> capture is more related to mime or mask theater, possibly body costume
> >>> digital puppetry but not puppetry. For me that would require the
> >>> actor to be in full control of the digital figure without the aid of
> >>> cosmetic animators and the like. To use the old analogy of monkey as
> >>> artist, a monkey could be dressed in a motion capture suit and
> >>> transformed digitally into a different creature, but I would never
> >>> call the monkey a puppeteer: if so I am a monkey's uncle.
> >>>
> >>> On Wed, Jan 6, 2010 at 11:02 AM, Bell, John <john.bell-AT-uconn.edu> wrote:
> >>>> I disagree with the idea that "Avatar" is not puppetry: "Avatar" is
> >> puppetry, motion capture is puppetry, and we should be excited about that
> >> fact. Motion capture is the movement of the human body in order to 
> >> control
> >> the movement of an image, an object in performance, and is therefore
> >> puppetry.
> >>>>
> >>>> See for example Andy Serkis's book about his work manipulating the 
> >>>> motion
> >> capture figure of Gollum in "Lord of the Rings", in which the "p" word 
> >> was
> >> routinely used by the performers and tech crew to describe what they were
> >> doing.
> >>>>
> >>>> It's important to consider this because otherwise the history of
> >> techniques like motion capture is thought to begin about two decades ago,
> >> when in fact the philosophy and aesthetics of motion capture go back
> >> centuries in the global history of puppet theater.
> >>>>
> >>>> The frequent captions of "Avatar" press photos which identify the 
> >>>> motion
> >> capture images in the film as the performers themselves are entirely
> >> misleading and are a misunderstanding of the form; as if a caption for a
> >> photo of Kermit said "Jim Henson as Kermit."
> >>>>
> >>>> "Avatar" is a puppet show! Not a good puppet show dramaturgically,
> >> because its depiction of a white guy warrior saving the poor blue people 
> >> is
> >> hopelessly irrelevant in our world, and because its espousal of extreme
> >> violence as the solution to serious problems is not such a good augury; 
> >> but
> >> a puppet show nonetheless!
> >>>>
> >>>> Dr. John T. Bell
> >>>> Director
> >>>> Ballard Institute and Museum of Puppetry
> >>>> University of Connecticut
> >>>> 6 Bourn Place Unit 5212
> >>>> Storrs, Connecticut 06269-5212
> >>>> office: 860 486 0806
> >>>> cell: 617 599 3250
> >>>> www.bimp.uconn.edu
> >>>>
> >>>> To make a contribution to the Ballard Institute and Museum of Puppetry,
> >> please go to
> >>>> https://secure.ga4.org/01/uconn_foundation_giving, and select "Ballard
> >> Puppetry Museum" from the "Purpose" list. Thanks for your support!
> >>>>
> >>>> -----Original Message-----
> >>>> From: puptcrit-bounces-AT-puptcrit.org
> >> [mailto:puptcrit-bounces-AT-puptcrit.org] On Behalf Of Stephen Kaplin
> >>>> Sent: Wednesday, January 06, 2010 10:21 AM
> >>>> To: puptcrit-AT-puptcrit.org
> >>>> Subject: Re: [Puptcrit] Avatar go see it
> >>>>
> >>>> I think it is extraordinary the way that the new motion capture
> >>>> technologies have blurred the boundary between puppet and human
> >>>> performer. The puppet becomes more like a skin to the performer than a
> >>>> separate performing object. However, that skin is not simply a costume
> >>>> one slips on and off-- it is a digital construct created at great
> >>>> expense of money and labour.
> >>>>
> >>>> But what is interesting is that the intense application of technology,
> >>>> (which for most forms of puppetry functions to extend the gap between
> >>>> the operator and the performing figure) bring the performer and
> >>>> performing object back together in tight embrace.
> >>>>
> >>>> Don't know if that is enough to make me drop $15 to see the 3-d movie.
> >>>>
> >>>> Stephen
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> On Jan 6, 2010, at 12:10 AM, Puppet People wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>> Hi critters;
> >>>>> Though not techniquely puppets , I would recommend to all in the
> >>>>> puppetry world to go and see the movie Avatar. I just saw it and was
> >>>>> blown
> >>>>> away by the computer graphics and 3-D effect. Also I should add the
> >>>>> story is
> >>>>> good too.
> >>>>> I know, I know, it's not puppetry but I think that animation is a
> >>>>> form
> >>>>> of puppetry and the CG stuff that can be done today is amazing. What
> >>>>> are
> >>>>> your thoughts?
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Mark
> >>>>> The Puppet People
> >>>>>
> >>>>> _______________________________________________
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> >>
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> >>
> >>
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> >
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