File puptcrit/puptcrit.1002, message 383


Date: Sat, 27 Feb 2010 09:27:56 -0500
From: Hobey Ford <hobeyone-AT-gmail.com>
To: puptcrit-AT-puptcrit.org
Subject: Re: [Puptcrit] puptcrit Digest, Vol 64, Issue 25 democracy


In this discussion we are talking about two things which continue to be
combined as if they are one: information and quality.
information is objective
quality is subjective.
When making subjective evaluations we wander off the path of facts.  I don't
suggest that editors look at a roster of subjects and decide: good or bad.
But in the end they have to go on opinion.  Opinions are subjective.  If I
make a history of puppeteers in Albany and I have a bias for adult
intellectual theater you will be included.  Let's say it is 1965 and I have
a narrower view of what is puppetry, I am perhaps going to overlook you.  If
I write a history of puppets at that time and your career is ignored, then
thats just tough.  Was your work not worthy?  You essentially don't exist
down the road when people study the puppetry of Albany.  How are you with
this?  Feeling good about it?

I have been fortunate in my career to have recognition.  I'm not concerned
about my own legacy.  I do care about puppet artists and want the net cast
wide.  When decisions of inclusion are made in the history of our artform,
many will be forgetten down the road because of someone's opinion and bias.
Were these scholars smart and informed, yes, do they have preferences and
biases? Who doesn't.  In 1920 Bourguereau was a joke.  Opinions and biases
demoted him in historical perspective.  Now he is fairing better because of
the perspective of time.  Were those who demoted him in the 20's dumb, no
they were intelligent people, but people with bias and preferences.



On Fri, Feb 26, 2010 at 11:33 PM, Ed Atkeson <edatkeson-AT-gmail.com> wrote:

> I think that Nancy's quote is pretty clarifying. It gives me a good
> feeling.
>
> Hobey, don't you step off the cliff a bit when you all of a sudden
> start talking in terms of deciding what "what is or isn't fine art"?
> You can talk about puppetry all day long without ever bringing that
> up. An enormous database of information about puppetry could be
> compiled without even talking about what's "good" or "bad," or -- in
> the case of Bourguereau -- fashionable.
>
> Just my opinion, butting in.
> Ed
>
>
> On Thu, Feb 25, 2010 at 2:52 PM, Hobey Ford <hobeyone-AT-gmail.com> wrote:
> > I would agree with you Nancy in terms of dates, facts and possibly
> > reputations.  But when we talk about what is or isn't fine art and make
> > lists of what is worthy of inclusion or not, it is subjective.  That is
> why
> > rubrics are almost impossible in accessment of arts.  They are just
> > opinions.  They are what an individual likes.  I agree that you wouldn't
> > want a free for all with research for an archive concerning objective
> > information.  There are people like yourself who have made a life's work
> out
> > of researching one thing and you are good at it.  But I have to disagree
> > with the architect who to me comes across as a snob, who doesn't think
> "the
> > public" knows anything and could possibly have a valuable opinion.  We
> are
> > talking about art, not science.  It is a subjective topic where everyone
> > does have a valid opinion because in the end thats all anyone's opinion
> > is...an opinion.
> >
> > Jungian Psychologist, John Sanford wrote about groups of people forming
> > associative ego's, people of a community who in their alliance form group
> > "egos" which support their own opinions and viewpoint.  We see it
> everyday
> > in our politics, "national viewpoints"  and at its worse in cults.    I
> have
> > my own likes and dislikes and some work that others find fascinating and
> > provocative, I find a pretentious self indulgent mess having little to do
> > with puppetry.  I took several theater graduates to what I thought would
> > really impress them in what is considered  the pinnacle of puppetry and
> > after the show eagerly awaited their opinions and they critiqued the show
> to
> > pieces and in the end I had to agree with them.  The audience of mostly
> > puppeteers, gave the show a standing ovation.  The Emporer's New clothes
> > comes to mind.  Remember the P of A chapter of "Master Puppeteer"
> > designation?  I am not suggesting that this book is not a valuable well
> > researched archive.  I plan to buy it and am greatful that people like
> > yourself made the effort.  But forming rosters of worthy contemporary art
> > and artists is just opinion.  I love *Adolphe*
> > *Bouguereau*<
> http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&client=firefox-a&hs=Mxj&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&ei=hM-GS7-uKs2Vtge597GnDw&sa=X&oi=spell&resnum=0&ct=result&cd=1&ved=0CAUQBSgA&q=Adolphe+Bouguereau+painter&spell=1
> >'s
> > paintings and today his work is being exhibited again after being hidden
> in
> > the basements of museums following the Impressionist movement.  He
> deplored
> > their work and held the movement back through the Salon system in Paris
> > which essentially chose what was worthy to be shown.   They did it back
> to
> > him in return.  In both cases a bias and collective opinion were at work.
> > So, respectfully, to those who choose what is the "state of the art",
>  they
> > are not dealing with facts, they are dealing with subjective opinions
> that
> > in the end aren't better than anyone elses.
> >
> >
> > On Thu, Feb 25, 2010 at 1:04 PM, <NANCYSTAUB-AT-aol.com> wrote:
> >
> >> A famous architect once observed that people in America confuse the idea
> >> that everyone has a right to an opinion with the idea that  everyone's
> >> opinion  is as good as everyone else's. I shudder to think  that anyone
> can
> >> make
> >> corrections to information. Research should be based  on multiple
> sources
> >> and
> >> investigation of the validity of the sources.
> >>
> >>
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