Date: Fri, 19 Feb 99 10:23:23 EST
From: "Brian J. Callahan" <Brian=J.=Callahan%MT%DFCI-AT-EYE.DFCI.HARVARD.EDU>
Subject: Re:Democracy


Ben writes:
>Another point is that the athenian system was not as random as generally 
>supposed because public office often required a large amount of monetry 
>expenditure by the officer. (this was the case all over the 
>anceint world not just athens.):

I think that the expenditure was only for certain offices, often just 
ceremonial ones, and the conferring of these offices amounted to a tax on the 
wealthy chosen.  I think these were the elective offices, but I could be 
wrong.  I think in Thucydides' "History of the Peleponesian (sp?) War" that 
there's an incident where a wealthy person is banished from Athens because he 
refused to make the necessary expenditures associated with an office. 

Anyway, I think you need to make more of a distinction between the Roman and 
the Athenian system.

>"At certain periods (the evidence was particularly good for roman africa 
>in the first two centuries ad) it became customary for the citizen body, 
>the 'club members' as it were, to specify in advance what sum of money 
>it expected from those upon whom the office was conferred , a practice 
>which might seem to us tantamount to offering the magistracies to the 
>highesty bidder"
>Charities and social aid in Greece and Rome, A.R.Hands ,page 39

>ie, if your poor you couldn't be in government so neither form of 
>election in athens really gave representation. (from what i've learnt 
>the romans were completely ridden with corruption of this sort but it 
>happened all over the medditeranean world including athens.)

But Athenian citizens (adult non-slave males) didn't need representation.  
They had an actual direct democracy.  The assembly voted on all major issues, 
and not only were the poor welcome, they got money to attend (the wealthy 
hated that bit).  The Roman system was really very different.  The urban poor 
might be placated with free corn in Rome, but in Athens they actually got to 
vote on the laws directly...one of the few times in history this has ever 
happened.  And they were paranoid about the rich taking power again, as was 
the case in many other Greek city states.  That's why they instituted things 
like payment for the assembly attendance and the lot to allocate offices.
Yes, there was corruption in Athens, lots, but the assembly consciously tried 
to insulate government decisions from it.  That's why they had hundreds of 
people on their juries--too many to bribe.  

Of course, when Athens became an imperial power, things began to 
degenerate...