Date: 15 Apr 1999 18:06:00 +0200
From: I-AFD_2-AT-anarch.free.de (Nico MYOWNA)
Subject: Re: US-information warfare & KLA


Hi all, hi, carp,

You wrote:
> >
> > Friedmann is a left publicist and living in Germany. Excuse me, but how
> > could you think that neo-liberal or left jews have necesary to do with the
> > "fascist" jewish community of Israel?
>
> Because here in the states they are one and the same.  The american jewish
> lobby +is+ the Israel lobby (I'm not lying) and the american jewish lobby
> is very much the liberal core group as far as domestic politics goes.  I
> didn't say it had to make sense, I just had the bad taste to comment on
> it.
>
> But I thought you were talking about our Friedman.  Who is this chap you
> mention?

He is one member out of "the central council of jews in Germany". The pre-  
sident of this council is the liberal Ignaz Bubis. There is now an other  
right-wing council "Union of religous jewish communities" for the religous  
practitioners in Germany. The president of this council is Number two of  
the fascist Haider-party in Austria.
>
> > There are a few jews in Europe who condemn the state of Israel and the
> > politic of the inheritors of the fascist faction inside the zionist move-
> > ment.
>
> There are very few anti-Israel jewish people in the U$.  I am, of course,
> using the wird "jewish" to describe the religous practitioners.
>
> > Okay, but Friedmann's words on the "Konkret" (a left publication in Ger-
> > many) panel discussion wasn't a definition of the term 'Holocaust'. It was
> > a direct historical comparison between the serbian state, the ethnic
> > clean- sing and the 3. Reich and the industrial annihilation of milliones
> > of vic- tims.
>
> Man, nico, what you are doing is called aguring "rhetoric."  When the
> U$/NATO does something you claim it is the shrill equivalent of hystorical
> genocide, imperialism, and general power-mongering and warlust.  This is
> called hyperbole.

Sorry, I haven't spoken about genocide in connection with NATO. I have  
only claimed that the start of war by the NATO have given Milosevic the  
*chance* to start this ethnic cleansing. I have spoken about the histori-  
cal fact, that the politic of Milosevic (and *not* the politic of NATO) is  
similar to the serbian politic of ethnic cleansing on a lower level be- 
tween 1919 and 1941. And I have spoken about indications and articles, who  
let you assume, that in fact the NATO have other objectives in this war.

To call this "shrill" and "hyperbole" is only your disfiguring, injuring
interpretation.
>
> Yet in defense of your position you argue that there are degrees of
> differnce in what happens over hystery and what is happening in Kosovo,
> these horrific things committed by Milosevic and his lackies, isn't all
> that bad because the actions don't meet some strict definition of a wird.

Carp, we discuss about indications who speak for the idea, that the  
horrific action by Milosevic is similar with Hitler. We doesn't speak here  
about how far this is "good" or "bad". Don't mixing your statement of  
morality with the definition of the word by historical facts.

There are still historical diffrences between the regime of Milosevic and  
Hitler and the 3. Reich. You cannot claim that the 3. Reich have had a  
phase *before* the conzentration camps; the first camps have been filled  
1933. There are at this moment no corroborate indications for conzentra-  
tion camps for ethnic Albanians and *the whole opposition* against the re-  
gime of Milosevic. The 3. Reich have between 1933 and 36 democratical or-  
ganisations like KPD, SPD, Unions ect. smashed. There are until now no  
corroborate indication that Milosevic try to smash the various parties in  
Serbia. His regime ruled since years with the mayority of the small ultra-  
right-wing serbian "fatherland" party, a maoist party, leaded by his wo- 
men, and the former communist and now socialist party.

And I have named diffrences *before* in what happen over NATO history and  
what is happening in the NATO countries now. This war of aggression agai- 
nst a state of souveranity who haven't attacked the NATO borders *is* a  
difference to the former rule of NATO as a alliance of defence.
>
> > > "Human rights" exist only in storybooks.  "Human rights" are whatever
> > > the states say they are, and absent the state they are whatever the guy
> > > with the biggest guns say.
> >
> > Where have you been in the last 350 years of fights and revolts for demo-
> > cracy and human rights? If the state leaders acept today a little the
> > "Human rights" and try to give reason for their war of aggression with
> > their fight for "Human rights" than make this plain the aims and triumphs
> > of our ancestors who fight for this "Human rights" and the intellectual
> > emanzipation of the people behind to be no longer only subjekt to the
> > state.
>
> Um, that's what I said.  If the state has the power, it determines what is
> a humyn right.  If the people have the power then they determine what is a
> humyn right.  If they don't have the power, no right."
>
> > Many left, democratic and revolutionary movements around the world fight
> > with, under reference to and with a claim for "Human rights". And no po-
> > litical refugee could have a chance to leave a country with a "Worldpass-
> > port", who based on "Human rights" only, if the "Human rights" exist in
> > storybooks only. These is part of an intellectual evolution and could be a
> > base for our agitation for anarchy.
>
> Oh.  Capitalism will allow anarchy tp "EVOLVE?"

Yes, because until now no state can really control what people think. And  
Capitalism is inpossible without people. If this people change their minds  
for more "Human rights" and get united power to claim respect for their  
ideas of "Human rights" than state and Capitalism have to respect at last  
their will. The emanzipation to be no longer only subjekt to the state is  
a first step to be no longer citizien of a state. But -- yes, this is in a  
democracy dependent of the power of the people in the national/internatio-  
nal publicity.

                        +++++++++++++++++++++++

Carp, my position is that the start of this war of agression was a stra- 
tegic mistake by the NATO. Now, after the ethnic cleansing by Milosevic  
and after 3 1/2 weeks air attacks we see all the farce of this war to stop  
the humanitarian catastrophe. The NATO isn't single-handed able to solve  
the problem of the Kosovars. If the NATO start their ground troops to oc- 
cupy the Kosovo, than Russia and Whiterussia start to attack the NATO --  
this is the WW III solution. If only the NATO air attacks going on than  
the ethnic cleansing going on -- this is perhaps the genocide solution. If  
the NATO stop their air attacks than *perhaps* Milosevic stop his ethnic  
cleansing and withdraw his troops -- but if he doesn't do that, than a  
greater UN army out of several states are possible together with Russia  
and perhaps Whiterussia against him to occupy the Kosovo and liberate the  
Kosovars -- this is the "peace"-solution, because only on this way the  
agressor against the Kosovars is issolated and stand alone against the  
world.

I have never argue that the Kosovars have to wait that anarchy envolve.

The german morning post report today the impression of german soldiers and  
officers, who have asked refugees about their experiences on the kosovars  
side of the border, that "many refugees try to exaggerate their experience  
with the paramilitarian forces". "There are much indications therefore,  
that the serbian regular army since the last 3 weeks try to hinder the pa- 
ramilitarian groups to attack the refugees", the newspaper reported. This  
soldiers working for the international Supreme court in Den Haag. This im-  
pression I have had a few days before....

My danish newspaper reported yesterday why Turkey need this war. Today  
there are elections in Turkey and the ruleing socialdemocratic party hoped  
to attain a greater number of votes out of the right-wing spectrum at the  
ballot boxes. The government hope furthermore a better stand for Turkey as  
a possible candidate for the EU. Therefore the turk government have said  
yes as one of the first nations to send ground troops to occupay the Koso-  
vo, be on Tony Blairs side to hold fast on the military aims of this war  
and try to argue that Turkey is the traditionel ally of the Kosovo and Al- 
bania as "old ground of the Osmanian Empire".

Nico

## CrossPoint v3.11 ##