Date: Fri, 2 Apr 1999 09:03:22 -0500
From: Unka Bart <mendicant-AT-buddhist.com>
Subject: Re: Screwing the Pooch--a mixed reply to Unka


It's always a delight to read the words of wisdom from our
Brother Goat.  That we (seldom) disagree matters not, there
is always wisdom in his reasoning, and it is worth noting
that all coins have *two* sides...

>as much as it pains me i'm gonna hafta sit long enow
>to address this, although ys might not wanna sit long enow to
>read it.  whilst i be in the midst o the "Attack of the Killer
>Haemorrhoids" i nevertheless find it impossible to ignore the
>atrocities (being committed on this list)--the most ignoble
>being the defamation and daemonisation of them what disagree.

Ouch!  My sincere condolences!  And I trust that I am not being
lumped into that last group you mention...

>	ok, br'er Slowgun be a bad dude, but without a lotta
>help from his fiends he just one butt-ugly voice crying in the
>wilderness.  i dunno, if anybody's noticed but y no sooner get
>rid o one o them assholes (ouch!) and another one pops out.

And (plop, goes the other oar, so that we don't just row around
in circles, you know) Yer Kindly Ol' Unka Bart picks up his oar,
using it as a pointer to the phrase "as soon as we get rid of one..."

Actually, if we were a little more vigorous and timely in "getting
rid of" these vermin when they first started demonstrating their
murderous proclivities, others might pause long enough to lose
their taste for it.

And besides, however he got there, br'er Slowgun is causing a
wee bit more mischief than causing us to lose sleep from the noise
of his baying.

>[please excuse any haemorrhoid allusions--i keep being reminded].
>to say that one evil outfit oughta screw with the workings o
>another evil outfit cuz they dont like what #2 does to itself

I wish that someone had intervened when the cowboys were playing
genocide with the indians.  I wish that someone had intervened
when the Nazis *started* playing genocide with the Jews.

And the Gypsies... And the Commies, and the Queers, and...

I wish that someone had intervened when Slowgun was playing genocide
with the Bosnians.  I'm glad that someone is intervening now,
however much worse the brain-dead way they have chosen, is making
things.

>or other third parties is really screwing the pooch.  There be
>evil folk in the world, so we gotta get together and kill'em so
>as to make room for the next wave o evil folk which--if we play
>our cards right--might as well be us (at least it'll keep us on
>top for a while, mebbe a long while).

I know that we have a fundamental disagreement on this point, my
beloved brother.  But I confess, I don't think I'll ever understand
it.  I just don't buy the idea that it was wrong to intervene in
the Nazi case, or that it is wrong now.  I accept that honorable
people can hold diametrically opposed views, this is one such.

>	when i first got here to the -AT--list i, or someotherbody
>--i disremember which--recoined the phrase "human nature" and
>us what accepted it as a valid concept got stomped on like a
>tub o Napa Valley grapes.  "no such thing!" shouted them o the
>purple feet.  "immaterial!" quoth those o the purple mouths.
>as a newcomer i was loath to get into a big magilla over the
>definition o terms whilst getting my butt (ouch!) kicked by
>the list heavyweights.  i correctly figgered what comes around
>does so cyclically.  it does and it has.

Yes.

>	here goes.  the human nature is to accumulate power
>and thence to abuse it.  dont believe me? read history--it's
>in there.  govt aint the root o all evil it's the manifestation
>o the dark angels o human nature.  e.g., we aint evil cuz we
>got govt; we got govt cuz we be evil.  fortunately, tho, the
>unremittantly evil human bean be exceedingly a rare critter.

Agreed.  Where we part ways is in the matter of how we react to
the rare ones that crop up, from time to time.

>most o our dark angels be puny enow not to wanna fly off and
>scorch earth without a lotta company.  there not only be safety
>in numbers--there be mischief also.  the Jugos just happen
>to be the villains o the month that our domestic (NATO) baddies
>be using to enhance their own iniquitous reprobacy--all in the
>name o peace, justice, and brotherhood, o course.

What you say is indisputable.  It is equally moot in my view.
Genocide is beyond the pale, beyond mere villainy.  It needs
action, and failure to take action to halt it amounts, in my
view, to complicity.  I'm not name-calling, I'm just givin my
view.

>> The second point involves "Hope."  Brother Dave accurately
>> presented my view, that the "glorious anarchist revolution"
>> will be heralded by the soft fluttering of avian swine; but
>> he goes off the deep end when he equates that (realistic)
>> assessment with a lack of Hope.  I do not believe that
>> there is any lack of protents for Hope, and I see no reason
>> not to keep it in one's heart at all times.
>
>	depends on what y hopes for.  the other side o the
>human nature coin is that there are also brighter angels in
>there.  as individuals, we be capable o recognising our own
>character defects as well as our strengths and, as individuals,
>working toward improving our deportment.  the down side to
>this is the onliest way i can guarantee the improvement o my
>brother's deportment thru my efforts is to kill him.

When I see one brother killing women, children and babies, I
am rather inclined to return the favor and cut the number of
deaths down to those *already*  dead at his hand, plus one.

If br'er Slowgun suddenly lays down his armies and surrenders,
we could discuss alternatives to dealing with him that don't
involve killing him.  He's not giving us that option, at the
moment.

>i can
>then guarantee he won't do no more bad stuff.  any other
>method is sure to fall short o the ideal and, therefore, will
>require concerted efforts by me and thee.  (can y spell "govt"?
>how's about "coercion"?)

Mere villiany is one thing.  Genocide, the willingness to murder
the helpless and innocent (babies and quite a number of children
and old folks fit one or both of those categories), is quite
another.  For people engaged in the later misbehavior, I think it
is more important to *stop* them than it is to rehabilitate them.

If they lay down their arms and surrender, then it might be
reasonable to discuss *punishment*, but killing them in the
act is not punishment, it is prophyllactic.

>	ok, ok.  it's a imperfect world full o flawed folk
>and we gotta do what we can to get along, right?  choosing
>the lesser evil o a less rambunctious form o coercive
>power might have its temporary advantages, but, in the
>final analysis the lesser evil is evil.  there aint no
>use in lying to ourselfs that the present setup be
>perfectable.  it aint. it's stopgap, at best

Not all evils are of equal abhorrence.  The lesser evil is
often the only choice.  This old soldier has never suggested
that the lesser evil be confused with Good, that doen't mean
the it should not be chosen when there is no *GOOD* alternative.

>	whilst i aint gung-ho on genocide, neither be i sanguine
>about suicide.  there prolly aint many innocents in the balkans
>over the age o 10 (much like it was in SEA). but, if i gotta fight
>the (sometimes unavoidable) good fight, i think i druther choose
>my ground as bestest i can; which aint perfectly but certainly be
>better'n them teenaged mutants we got running the show (in the
>USoA, anyways) at present.  y kill a snake easiest by cutting
>off its head, neh?  there be plenty of snakes to go around.
>everbody grab yr knifes.

On the matter of the preferences thing, we agree.  We would both
prefer that there not be any grounds for this discussion.  But the
genocide here is not being limited to folks over the age of 10.