Date: Sun, 09 May 1999 00:21:00 -0400
From: Chuck0 <chuck-AT-tao.ca>
Subject: Re: NATO bombs Chinese embassy




danceswithcarp wrote:
> 
> On Sat, 8 May 1999, Chuck0 wrote:
> 
> > Sheesh, Carp, you sound like a real flag-waving liberal. I guess I can
> > expect you at the next Lafayette Park anti-China hatefest starring
> > Richard  Gere.
> 
> Okay, chuck0; you are way out of line.  Number One is as far as I know me
> and Unka Bart are the only people on this list up until right now who have
> EVER challenged the "Free Tibet"/Richard Gere bullshit line.  The only
> ones ever. Including you.  Period.  Go take a look at the archives.  Then
> re-read my post you are responding to.  You don't like the death penalty
> in the U$?  Fine.  I don't like it either.  But even wirse you don't seem
> to like people pointing out that The Great Satan isn't at the top of the
> heap when it comes to atrocities.  If I'm against something, I'm against
> it.   I don't make apologies so it can be alright in one place and not
> another. A lot of others here of late, seem to be making those kinds of
> distinctions.

OK, OK. I just sent one zinger in your direction, with that opening
paragraph. Everything else was aimed at real liberal, not people like
yourself.

Sure, the Great Satan isn't at the top of the heap, but it depends on
which category we're talking about. But we can safely say that the U.S.
is in the top 20. There are a great many people out there who are still
convinced that the U.S. does no wrong. I'll bet that many of them go to
these Richard Gere rallies.

> Number Two is find one mention of Tibet in the post you are responding to.

I wasn't accusing you of being concerned with Tibet. I shifted gears and
started attacking Free Tibet liberals.

> Number Three is read Amnesty International; How come they are a legitimate
> source for every anarko or lefty going until it comes to something like
> selling organs harvested from people shot in the back of the head?  Hey,
> they DO it.  And some odd beltway attitude thinks it beneath us to comment
> on it?

Amnesty does some OK work, but they are another liberal group. China
does alot of nasty things like harvesting organs from executed
prisoners. I don't dispute that. But where are these kids who protest
that, but won't say anything about the death penalty in the U.S. Yeah, I
know some of them are concerned with both, but not all of them, or even
a majority of them.

> > Yeah, I'm sick of the liberals who can turn out in droves to protest
> > China or China's actions in Tibet, but can't get off their damn
> > alternative ass to support U.S. political prisoners or Mumia Abu-Jamal
> > or Leonard Peltier.
> 
> I bought my Peltier bumpersticker.  I'll probably buy another one this
> summer.  Am I absolved?  Mumia?  I met guys in the supermax who are there
> and who will be there no matter what happens to Mumia.  Save Mumia.  Go
> ahead.  I hope you make it.  But out in these parts Mumia is the moral
> equivalent of Habitiat For Humanity.  Habitat takes a good liberal, gets a
> few volunteer hours out of them that makes the volunteer feel good and
> feel like their obligation is up for another year, and they have helped
> ONE family, and thousands of hours of time are invested by the group.

Hey, I hear you. You haven't even heard 5% of the criticism that I've
lobbed on the Atlantic Anarchist Circle list. I helped get 20 anarchos
to Philly in a van, but I'll be damned if I'm going to go around whining
like the NPC about how they had 25,000 and the press didn't cover them.
Fucking liars, there were only at most 15,000 there, with 25% of them
being anarchists. And we weren't even fucking represented on the
speakers list.

Another boring leftist demo.

Don't get me started on the groupthink that permeates the Free Mumia
movement. Everybody is afraid to speak out about some of the shit that's
going on in the movement. All the authoritarian leftist groups march
lockstep behind MOVE, because it's the only thing that lends them some
revolutionary authenticity.

As you know, there are guys who are executed every week who can't even
get 100 people to care about their fate.

> Meanwhile, over 3 million americans remain homeless.  Free Mumia?  Sure.
> Free them all.  But if I have to pick one to make a statement though,
> it'll be Smokey. The guy's been down since he was 15 and he's 29 now.  And
> he's looking at life.   That's my crusade.  Or is that not the proper
> stance since he's functionally illiterate?

Yes, you can do more helping him than you can being just another person
on the Mumia bandwagon. Ed Asner ain't going to sign some NY Times ad
for Smokey.

> > Those damn anti-China fests always attract more folks than any other
> > human rights demo. It's because folks still think they are fighting the
> > Red Menace and "Communist China." Then the youngsters protest China
> > because REM told them to do it.
> 
> REM is not my fault.  But even if REM was (I remember when Dan Rather got
> beat, and I knew the question long before REM) your pissed-offed-ness that
> someone is getting more response than you is a sure sign you need a
> vacation.

Hey Carp, can't I sling some shit like you? I do know alot of young
anarchists and other activists in this town who do some great shit. They
are pretty inspirational. I'm not blaming you for REM. I'm just venting
in a general fashion.

> > Singling out China for protests about human rights is the kind of
> > liberal myopia which caused me to become an anarchist. I don't pick and
> > choose; I'm concerned about all human rights abuses. Given that the U.S.
> > is one of the largest human rights absuers, I think we should start by
> > cleaning up our own backyard.
> 
> Well, chuck0, I'm sorry I didn't list all of the humyn rights abusers in
> the wirld in that post.  I didn't know it was my turn.   But when you rail
> at the U$ and avoid China, when you rail at NATO and avoid Milosevic, when
> you rail at the U$/UK and avoid Saddam, well, it sure looks like you are
> "picking and choosing."

Hey, Milosevic and Saddam are bad guys. Saddam gassed the Kurds and
forced thousands of guys into his damn armies. But everybody hates them
and few question the war criminals bombing the other war criminals.

> > What's barbaric is a system that professes to be a human rights paragon,
> > but that has thousands of kids dying from malnutrition.
> 
> You are talking now about Iraq?  Yes, there is a porblem there.  Part of
> it is the UN sanctions; the other part is that the oil that is being sold
> to purchase medicines and food is purchasing medicines and food that isn't
> being distributed (Um, let see, that lie is being told by UNICEF) so the
> body count goes up.

It's a fucked up situation. It would help if the U.S. allowed American
volunteer organizations to help out directly. Like those anarchist
Catholic Workers in Pittsburgh who attempted to mail medicine to Iraq
only to have the Post Office say no.

> Sometimes I am simply amazed at what fine surgeons we are when it comes to
> carving out our stand on issues.  I +attack+ China for a brutal policy,
> and then I am attacked because (A) I didn't attack the U$ in the same
> breath, and then (B) I am attacked because I don't *march* to amend the
> policies of a state I'm not supposed to recognize?

Hey, that's OK, but I'm pointing out that lots of people jump on the
anti-China bandwagon and I think half of the reason why is because folks
still think of China as the other Evil Empire of Communism (tm).

> I don't get it.  I thought leftists and liberals were the ones who wanted
> to change state policies.  I thought anti-authoritarians made blanket
> statements.  Personally, I don't give a rat's ass how many Chinese state
> functionaries get killed by whatever means.  I don't recommend anyone go
> out of their way to do so, but yes, I find it absolutely hilarious when a
> state with the recent hystery of China calls someone else "barbaric."

I found it hilarious too. Fucking hypocrites!

But it was interesting to hear NPR have to say that the U.S. was being
accused by China of committing war crimes. Fuck China and fuck the U.S.

> I told you a long time ago, chuck0, to get out of that city.  You're
> starting to sound like a Washington pol who thinks everything in the whole
> wirld is encompassed inside that circle of freeways.

Freeways? You must mean subways. How do I sound like a pol? Just because
I bitched about a bunch of liberal "Free Tibet" protestors?

> That's too bad.  You need to go to the Indy 500 with the pbm5960, goat,
> bart, me and uburoi.  It'll help clear your head.

Yeah, I heard about the field trip. Maybe next year. I'm doing my part
by cutting back on anarchist activities, at least anarchist movement
stuff beyond the beltway. ;-)

We've got some promissing stuff developing here.
 
> And Richard Gere might be there.  Gomer Pyle will be (He sings "Back Home
> Again In Indiana"), and Billy-by-gawd-Graham is giving the prayer.  A few
> days eating red meat and dirnking generic beers is what I prescribe.

Eww, I think I'm going to go camping at the beach with the local
anarchos instead.

Did I mention we have the first boat in our anarchist navy? I don't sail
but it's pretty cool. Looking forward to seeing the Jolly Roger flying
near Georgetown.

-- 
Chuck0
http://flag.blackened.net/chuck0/home/

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