File spoon-archives/anarchy-list.archive/anarchy-list_1999/anarchy-list.9912, message 34


Date: Wed, 01 Dec 1999 13:26:27 -0500
From: Chuck0 <chuck-AT-tao.ca>
Subject: Fwd: N30 Posts from Slashdot




-------- Original Message --------
Subject: Posts from Slashdot
Date: Wed, 1 Dec 1999 09:00:44 -0000
From: "Grugnog" <grugnog-AT-tao.ca>
Reply-To: "November 30 International Day of Action" <n30-AT-listbot.com>
To: "November 30 International Day of Action" <n30-AT-listbot.com>

November 30 International Day of Action - http://www.n30.org

Here are a few interesting posts from
http://slashdot.org/articles/99/11/30/2230252.shtml


Not really... (Score:4, Informative)
by strabo on Tuesday November 30, -AT-10:18PM EST (#87)
(User Info) http://localhost

>From what I have seen (I am in downtown Seattle right now), there has been
VERY minimal police violence, almost no injuries to people, and the vast
majority of the protest WAS nonviolent.

There were a lot of people that started coming out, particularly toward
the
end of the afternoon/evening, who saw this as an excuse to riot and
destroy
property. There were also a large number of peaceful protesters trying
to talk
them down.

For the most part, the police simply used tear gas (not pleasant, but
nonviolent), pepper spray, and some rubber bullets. Mostly gas and
pepper
spray. And they used it fairly sparingly until it became evident that
something had to be done to get things under control, and they imposed
the
curfew. Then they got more agressive with the tear gas to get people OUT
of
the downtown area.

There was a lot of property destruction done by a small (in comparison)
group
of people, and the police, for the most part, excersized a good deal of
restraint in dealing with it.

Also, for the most part, the protesters (peaceful) that I have talked to
feel
that today was a GREAT success, that their message was heard, and that
their
objectives were accomplished. I don't think that will get lost in the
noise at
all.

All in all, I must applaud both the peaceful protesters of today -and-
the
police. They both did their jobs, did them well, and nobody really got
hurt
(that I'm aware of). It could have been A LOT worse.

- strabo





2 replies beneath your current threshold.
Re:A real shame (Score:4, Insightful)
by Q*bert (Don'tSpamqweaver-AT-vovida.com) on Wednesday December 01,
-AT-12:54AM EST
(#351)
(User Info) http://www.vovida.com/

Heh. I cannot help but smile at the naivete that you show in lamenting
that
these protests turned "violent". This kind of thing happened in the '60s
all
the time, with the cops instigating the violence at least as often as
the
protestors. In any large group of demonstrators, there will always be
some who
resort to violence, or at least unruly behavior. In any large group of
cops,
the same is true. In fact, I would say that, in the U.S., the police
have a
much worse track record of using excessive force than do political
demonstrators. Also, you have to consider this: Blocking traffic,
stringing up
banners, and even smashing windows is not violence. It is at worst
disruption.
Windows don't have feelings, and putting yourself in someone's way is a
far
cry from hurting them. On the other hand, clubbing people, firing rubber
bullets at them, and choking them up with tear gas are pretty clearly
acts of
violence. They may not have lasting effects--let's hope not, for those
who
have been clubbed tonight!--but they are painful and accomplish little.
More
to the point, they all target the innocent as well as the guilty. I hate
to
break it to you, but tear gas floats, and rubber bullets are not exactly
fired
from precision sniper rifles at predictable targets. As others report
here,
even non-demonstrators are being gassed and shot at.
What I mean to say is that the dynamics of "crowd control" always
involve
brutality. (Why police don't just stand there with their shields and
arrest
people, I don't know.) Another thing about situations like these is
that, with
so many agents acting so unpredictably, is that sudden and wild actions
often
take place. The breakdown of the walls at Woodstock is one classic
example. A
much more common and less light-hearted example is that moment in every
demonstration-gone-wrong where someone does something violent and
suddenly it
all erupts into a melee. Such are the dynamics of complex systems. As
often as
not it is impossible to see who threw the first blow, the police or the
protestors. Once someone does, though, things happen fast;

The police crack down, more or less indiscriminately beating people and
firing
tear gas;
Most protestors panic and try to flee the area;
A few protestors stay and start baiting the police by throwing things at
them
(like unexploded tear gas cannisters, for instance), fighting back with
their
fists, and setting things on fire.
>From there the situation just goes from bad to worse. In the confusion, a lot
of people get hurt with no personal provocation at all. It's a mob
scene.
By the way, if you ever decide to lob a tear gas cannister back at the
cops,
think twice. They are extremely hot when they land, so unless you handle
them
the right way you will just burn yourself.

Perhaps this is our generation's "baptism of fire". Most of us have
never seen
a large-scale demonstration, let alone one that turned into a riot. A
lot of
people here are either shocked by the violence--like you--or
disbelieving and
blindly trusting in the police. In my opinion, both of these reactions
are
naive. On the one hand, large demonstrations often turn violent; this is
just
a fact of life. There are too many agents acting too quickly. Mob scenes
are
truly an example of complex systems at work. On the other hand, police
always
exacerbate this violence. I don't know why; they must be taught to do it
in
riot training. Instead of forming a human wall and arresting the "bad
apples",
they try to disperse the whole crowd with tear gas and rubber bullets.
Perhaps
they fear an organized response more than they fear the mob scenes
required to
disperse a crowd.

As I say, perhaps this is our generation's baptism of fire. Perhaps,
too, it
will be a turning point in what has so far been general Dilbert-esque
grumbling or just plain lying down over the abuses of corporate America.
I
hope so. Let us remember among the inevitably p

Read the rest of this comment...




7 replies beneath your current threshold.

It looks like Beirut here... (Score:5, Interesting)
by strabo on Tuesday November 30, -AT-10:01PM EST (#36)
(User Info) http://localhost

It is AMAZING what's going on outside right now. I work in the Pioneer
Square
section of Seattle, just on the south end of Downtown proper. I'm
probably
insane for still being here, but that's what they pay me the big bucks
for,
right? Oh yeah, I'm salary. :P

Anyway, I've been watching this whole thing unfold all day, and it has
been
absolutely insane. The National Guard has been called in, the Downtown
area
(starting 2 blocks north of me right now) is under curfew until morning,
and
the tear gas was so thick at times that you could barely see across the
street!

When I came down here this morning, it wasn't too bad - there were
several
tens of thousands of people protesting, but it was mostly under control
and
peaceful. A little tear gas here and there, but not much. The condition
deteriorated throughout the day until around 4:30-5:00 - it started to
get
dark, and it seems like all hell broke loose.

Watching the news (and the streets, for that matter), it was very
surreal -
the first thing I wanted to say was "this is happening WHERE?" It looked
like
CNN coverage of some foreign city under seige by terrorists - not
kidding at
all... Police in all their riot gear, herding people out of the "curfew
zone",
shooting tear gas and pepper spray, rubber bullets, and now the National
Guard. My kid sister even got tear gassed on her way to work this
afternoon!

All in all, I must say that the police have shown some pretty decent
restraint
through all of this. Lots of gas, etc, but not too much violence, and
VERY few
arrests - I think the count is at around 22 people. 22 people out of
THOUSANDS
really isn't bad. The VAST majority of the protesters were also very
well-behaved and got their point across well. It wasn't until some of
the
"hey, let's go riot!" people started coming out of the woodwork before
it got
nasty.

Very odd day, all in all. There's helicopters flying overhead every
couple of
minutes, and APC's just up the street, and I'm not sure how I'm going to
get
home, which is on the other side of the locked down area, but very
interesting
nonetheless...

*grin* Never again will I say "it couldn't happen HERE... not in MY
town..."

- strabo



3 replies beneath your current threshold.

The WTO (Score:4, Insightful)
by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday November 30, -AT-10:07PM EST (#51)

The real problem with the WTO is that it gives away too much
sovereignty. Here
in California we're banning MTBE from gasoline because its somewhat
water
soluble, and may be a carcinogen. I've heard that there are oil
companies in
other countries trying to get the ban overturned in court because it
violates
the WTO guidelines.

If such a case were decided in favor of the oil co.'s, it would basicly
mean
that the US government has given away California's right to self govern,
and
the people would have to keep drinking MTBE contaminated water no matter
what
they thought of the issue.

That's the sort of thing they're protesting against. More power to them!
I
wish I could go to Seattle and join them.




3 replies beneath your current threshold.

political ramblings (Score:5, Insightful)
by MillMan on Tuesday November 30, -AT-10:45PM EST (#149)
(User Info)
I am a bit suprised to see this on slashdot, but since it's here I have
a few
things to say :)

I posted this link earlier on the "cyber-sit in story" or whatever it
was
called. I'll warn you this time that it is a very left-wing site, but
don't
worry, it won't kill you. In fact, you might learn something. It's a
good
addition to mainstream coverage that doesn't talk about the WTO at a
particularly intellectual level.

Z magazine WTO coverage

I didn't think so many people would end up protesting. This is good
because it
gives the issue LOTS of attention. As usual the media has overblown the
violence, looks like a few bonfires and some broken windows. But it
looks like
its getting a lot uglier. It's been mostly peaceful from what I've seen
other
than blocking traffic and enterance to the event. Hopefully people from
Seattle will keep us up to date.

The WTO applies to the computer and sofware industry the same as it does
to
every other industry. The WTO is, in my opinion, a government by and for
corporations. They don't have any accountabilty to the public. They can
overturn laws in any member country that are deemed unfair to
competition. The
most common example I have seen is that countries in Europe were cited
by the
WTO for not allowing the sale of American beef products because the cows
were
treated with hormones. CNN.com has a few other examples in their
coverage.

I think the WTO is an extreme form of capitalism that REALLY puts money
before
people. It takes control away from local governments and the people.

Globalization definately has its benefits. I think most people reading
this
can see them as far as the hardware and software industry, especially
our
trade relationship with Asian countries. I see it as a step twords
global
unification (well, a really small step). But when labor rights and the
environment aren't put first, no one wins, and the gap between the rich
and
poor gets wider. I think this is why so many protesters have descended
on
Seattle. Corporations have gone too far this time. The establishment
better be
careful or the next decade could end up being a rehash of the 60's with
globalization as the central issue.

At any rate it's an important issue that everyone should try to learn
about.



2 replies beneath your current threshold.

This kills all the real issues! (Score:5, Insightful)
by PG13 (gerdes-AT-caltech.edu) on Tuesday November 30, -AT-10:47PM EST (#156)
(User Info)
The WTO has many many good points and several very troubling points such
as
patent issues and the ever increasing power of corporations.
Unfortunatly this
protest distracts attention from the real issues and focuses them on the
non-issues of unionized labour and 'workers rights.' The violence
involved
makes it even worse, no one will take seriously the intellectual
property
concerns after this.

For the record I call the labour concerns irrelevant because at heart of
the
matter all that is important is how much stuff the workers recieve.
Lowering
tarriffs can only increase the total amount of goods in a country (more
goods
enter the nation) and while some citizens may be demoted to lesser jobs
a
fluid job market will guarantee everyone is still employed and hence the
country has more goods in total.

So the net effect of trade barriers is to favor organized labour at the
expense of the rest of the country. While you might feel that working
class
people deserve more money this could easily be accomplished by
increasing
federal aid to those who don't make much money. Increasing this aid
would
accomplish the goal of makeing sure the working class are not
impoverished
while not reducing the total amount of goods in the country.

On the other hand the WTO's seemingly strong stance on intellectual
property
might restrict the adoption of new/more efficent technology thereby
making the
world as a whole a less wealthy place (yes I realize IP is necessery to
encourage innovation the trick is striking the right balance). But this
issue
will now be ignored.
"Science makes godlike -- it is all over with priests and gods when man
becomes scientific. Moral: science is the forbidden as such -- it alone
is
forbidden


Re:Those jeans you're wearing... (Score:5, Informative)
by OWJones on Tuesday November 30, -AT-10:47PM EST (#158)
(User Info) http://www.cs.virginia.edu/~jdm2d

... which is why they're protesting.
I, for one, am very disturbed by the fact that most of the clothes I'm
wearing
were most likely made by underpriviledged workers, not only in
third-world
countries, but also here in the US. When the people have a very limited
choice, when all they've been given are what they don't want, it's not
necessarily their fault if they use it. It is their fault if they don't
do
anything about it.

I'm just afraid that the overly sensational US media is going to focus
on the
20 or 30 idiots who made serious trouble, while the other 40-50K people
there
behaved themselves. The tension in this country has been growing at a
very
visible rate in the last few years and I think this is just one of the
first
(mostly) good outwards signs of it.

Being a (young) 20-something myself, most of the people I know (an
interesting
mix, seeing as I have both leftist or libertarian friends yet go to a
very
conservative school) are frustrated and angry about the state of
politics in
this country. The average person no longer has a voice, and large
corporations
and government institutions are working hard to make sure we have even
less of
a voice. Restrictions on encryption, anyone? More wiretapping
capabilities
built into our hardware and software? The "right" of the NSA and FBI to
circumvent due process and keep people under surveillence without a
warrant?

The WTO (good article here in pdf) has a track record of leveragaing
their
power to tromp the soverign laws of independent countries in order to
make
more money (article here). Powerful representatives from the US and
large
corporations convince small, developing nations that they need the
latest
whiz-bang-all-in-one products to even survive in the new world. These
representatives then provide tasty soundbites wherein they ask for free
trade
and villify the protestors for not allowing their poor, starving country
to
get the best TVs out there (yes, bad example, but you get the point).
It's for
reasons like this that when I have kids they will never ever have Gerber
baby
food.

And for everyone who's been saying "Hippie, go home", RTFA (articles)
before
you make yourself look stupid. Thousands of people from all different
walks of
life are protesting this, not just a few "burnt-out acid-dropping
hippies who
crawled out of the woodwork", as much as you'd like to believe that.
Middle-aged people who know this is a Bad Thing (TM) are right next to
youth
who feel they want to make a difference and are motivated to do so.
Prominent
figures have lent their voices to causes such as this, and the
difference is
starting to be felt. Previous generations had The Who, The Clash and U2
to
send out the call for arms and action against the oppresive elements of
their
times. Today, groups like Rage Against The Machine are sending out the
call to
action and education to the youth of today. Do you think it's an
accident
their album debuted at #1 and is currently the #2 selling album in the
world??
I don't think anything short of physical action on this scale (meaning
large
peaceful yet committed protest groups) are going to bring about the
change we
need.

Educate yourself. Let yourself get angry. And then do something
constructive
and meaningful to channel that anger. My 100% support to the protesters
in
Seattle. Not to mention somewhat reluctant thanks to the police out
there for
not allowing a re-creation of the 1968 Democratic convention in Chicago
to
occur.

-jdm


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