From: "Old Goat" <olgoat-AT-kdsi.net> Subject: Re: Fw: Forced Electroshock of 25 yr old planned in NY Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2000 00:15:54 -0000 ----- Original Message ----- From: Unka Bart <gatorojo-AT-earthlink.net> [large snippages] > Let me state in advance that this is one area that my friend, and the voice of wisdom on this list (he's older than I, and infinitely wiser - and vice versa) Goat, do not agree. > It is an unfortunate fact that some people get broken by forces beyond their control, and thus, of no fault of their own. Still, everyone has free will, and everyone is ultimately responsible for their actions and the consequences of those actions. > > And let us not forget that death is one of those univerally shared experiences, it come to each of us, without exception. So, my personal view is that someone who exercises his/her free will to kill, rape or main should be summarily executed. My view is that one's right to life ends when you take another's, but in any event, executing the violent transgressor merely brings the inevitable earlier than (perhaps) it would otherwise have come. And I feel the same about violent rape, and maiming. > NOT out of revenge, but to ensure, for the sake of those members of society not yet killed, maimed or raped by the transgressor, that there is no danger of recidivision by that particular broken individual. As I said, it may not be fair because that individual was broken by things beyond that individual's control; but life is not fair, and does not come with any guarantees. > > Thus, in my entirely personal view, the option of treatment is quite a generous one. > > Yer kindly Ol' Unka Bart > Bartus, y silver - tongued devil, y. you can downright turn a fella's head with them smooth words and that winsome smile. ah youth. nonetheless, y have spoke true. during these exchanges i often find it necessary to remind meself that acceptance dont indicate approval any more 'n disagreement indicates rejection. often in this real life magilla wherein we find ourselfs we gotta aks the musical question "what's the most humane form o self - defence?" my basic quarrel is (and always has been) with the social unit taking unto itself powers/rights that it will not allow its individual members to possess. whilst i abhorr state - sanctioned murder committed in my name, i can certainly understand violent - force self defence. historically, the Goat Clan's penultimate device for this purpose has been external banishment -- exile. o course, the ultimate device was homicide -- to be performed only upon the exile's unwarrented return to the social unit (Clan). the first adult Goater to encounter the interloper was obligated to terminate with extreme prejudice forwith. very much the deterrent there. i have heard it reasonably argued that banishment merely caused the Clan's problem to become someone else's problem. perhaps, perhaps not. should the miscreant mend his ways somewheres down the turnpike, well, so much the better. should he become a burden there then the locals were free to deal with him as they saw fit. was this fair to the neighbours? probably not, but warnings were usually widely spread amongst the Roma. (uncharitably, we worried little for the gadji.) was it a perfect system? most certainly not; but it was a workable one. more often than no, the threat o being forcibly cast out from the family's bosom was sobering enow to effect a amendment o life -- repentence, if y will. if, howsomever, such was not the case, a just punishment needed be swift and sure. but whereas the blood o self defence runs hot and to the moment, vengence must be considered and cool. yes, the right to life can be held forfeit. and no, i cannot kill or allow another to kill in my name without being greatly diminished myself. so it is with us all. a delicate balance must be struck in the health of the unit. as to responsibility for one's actions, the buck always settles into my wallet. rarely have i fallen into a pit i didn't dig. upon those few occasions i found myself in the bottom o someone else's pit, i have, also, found it prudent to stop digging. never have i been in a situation so bad that a little injudicious rambunctiousness on my part couldnt make it one helluva lot worse. this world is one in which we -- responsibly -- must live life on life's terms, however imperfectly. attempted virtue -- incomplete as it may be -- is always preferable to deliberate malfeasance, whatever its motive. any social unit requires agreed upon tenets. any member has choices. among these are: agree and obey, disagree and disassociate, disobey and suffer the consequence. efforts need be made to impress upon any errant individual what constitutes unacceptable behaviour. predictably, then, it is my opine that very few be beyond redemption. those few, however, constitute a cancer upon the body politic. as such, they need be excised in some -- hopefully humane -- agreed upon manner. Ziguener Ziegenbock
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