Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2001 11:04:04 -0500 (EST)
From: Flint Jones <flint-AT-mobtown.org>
Subject: Re: Fwd: Re: [i-news]: A-infos: Anarchism or Censorship?]



If a publishing collective decides not to publish material submitted to
them, that doesn't make them censors.  A-infos has often had pretty rigid
guidelines, and as a collective doing the work, they make decisions.
Anyone is free to set up an unmoderated list, and A-Infos is usually
begging for people to help.    

For instance, Infoshop.org doesn't post every bit of anarchist news out
there.  We wouldn't expect them too.  But, what you do choose to publish
or call attention too is something that readers should be aware of.

Several anarchists groups are engaging in "exhibition and isolation" of a
group of supposed "anarchists" who by all the accounts available in
English, prefer to settle political discussions by  getting together in a 
gang and beating up someone with a baseball bat and straight razor.

Infoshop.org hasn't carried any of this news, but A-Infos has.


Turkey; From Anarchists to Anarchists
http://www.ainfos.ca/01/feb/ainfos00248.html

Turkey; Clarification about the declaration
http://www.ainfos.ca/01/feb/ainfos00294.html

Turkey, More about the attack to an anarchist on the 10th of February
http://www.ainfos.ca/en/ainfos06008.html


Groups that have already condemned the attack are:
- Kara mecmuA Periodical
- Toplumsal Ekoloji Grubu (Social Ecology Group)
- Oteki-ben Lezbiyen Feministler
- Ankara Anarchists
- 5th of May Group
- "Former" AGF (Anarchist Youth Federation) members
- An-Fem (Antimilitarist Feminists)
- Arkabahe Periodical
- Devrimci Genlik (Revolutionary Youth)
- YAMY (Ystanbul Antimilitarist Ynitiative)
- Ystanbul Feminist Ynitiative
- YSKD (Yzmir War Resisters Association)
- Jujin Kadn Dergisi (Jojin Women Periodical)


I think that A-Infos has decided to postpone publishing documents from
AGF, Efendisizler-Masterless (their periodical) and SED until they make a
statement about the attack a prudent move.  The A-Infos collective states
here also that if they can find another group in Turkey to submit the
article in question, that they would publish it.  

A-Infos could use more openess, transparancey and accountability.
So could most of our projects... like infoshop.org, or mobtown.org, or
several other anarchist media outlets.

I don't understand why Chuck0 wants to make this instance of moderation an
issue when A-Infos declines to publish all kinds of articles regularly. 

A-Infos, unlike Infoshop.org, has a clearly published set of policies.
Decision Making Guidlines are clearly spelled out.   Does infoshop.org?

A-Infos also has a clear set of requirements and a process for joining the
org collective.  Does infoshop.org?  

A-Infos also has clear policies on editing, www, and delegation of tasks.
http://www.ainfos.ca/org/policies.html

Should A-Infos -org collective members be chosen in a different way?
Maybe.  We all have the right to free association.  Would it make more 
sense for -org collective members to be elected to that role by vote by
the subscribers?  Or, since it is relatively easily to create their own 
news services if they want, we should let people adopt whatever policies
they agree to.

A-Infos is probably the most transparent, accountable and open anarchist
news service on the internet.  It definately is prolific and has a very
high signal to noise ratio.  It's also the one people have voluntarily
subscribed to the most.  It's also the most multi-lingual and longest
running.

That doesn't mean it can't be improved, it can be.  

But choosing this method and this issue with the misleading idea that it
is censorship is a bad idea.

Why haven't you posted any of the news of this brutal attack from supposed
comrades on infoshop.org?  

By comparison, infoshop.org has posted a single short article by the
forementioned groups who have been accused of a brutal attack on a lone
individual.
The article, itself, isn't questionable... but was published on February
25th.  The attack upon the turkish anarchist by other turkish
"anarchists" was first published on A-Infos on February 15th, and
followed on the 18th by a clarification on February 18th that listed
the groups which were condemning the attack.  

http://www.infoshop.org/news6/turkey_demo.html

So infoshop.org doesn't want to participate in the "exhibition and
isolation" campaign, but they don't repost the news of the attack either.

What's infoshop.org's policies for reposting news from A-infos?


On Tue, 6 Mar 2001, Chuck0 wrote:

> Normally I wouldn't forward messages like this to infoshop-news, but
> since many anarchists consider A-Infos to be an asset to the anarchist
> movement, I'm forwarding it in the interest of promoting greater
> transparency, accountability and openness at A-Infos.
> 
> I'm not the only anarchist around who is currently upset at the manner
> in which A-Infos is currently operating.
> 
> Chuck0
> 
> -------- Original Message --------
> Subject: Re: [i-news]: A-infos: Anarchism or Censorship?
> Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2001 12:54:00 +0200
> From: Ilan Shalif <gshalif-AT-netvision.net.il>
> To: Chuck0 <chuck-AT-tao.ca>
> CC: org <a-infos-org-AT-ainfos.ca>
> References: <3AA4754A.22C7CDD1-AT-tao.ca>
> 
> Hi Chuck
> The said people were banned temporarily from distribution on a-infos
> till the case of the physical attack will be cleared - following
> a MOTION proposed by Turkish comrades.
> 
> The original text itself speak for itself - no request for help.
> 
> > > > > Subject: About Manuel Munzur: important and urgent
> > > > > Mime-Version: 1.0
> > > > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
> > > > > Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
> > > > > X-Mailer: mail.com
> > > > > X-Originating-IP: 212.253.3.44
> > > > >
> > > > > Comrade Manuel Munzur had been  in prison,  where he went into as an
> > > > > anarchist, for 5 years, and   was conditionaly released. But  due to
> > > > > damaging state property during a riot in the prison, he has been again
> > > > > punished with four years and six month prison sentence. At the same time,
> > > > > he has been wanted as he refused to go in army.
> > > > > Our comrade who has been suffering from health problems  due to
> > > > > imprisonment in unhealty conditions and torture, has  security problems in these days.
> 
> They did not bother to tell us why Manuel Munzur was sentenced to
> 5 years in prison. So there is a short factual item with out any
> explanation about context.
> 
> > > > Manuel Munzur has been in close relationships with Anarchist Platform and
> > > > definetly  he will continue being in touch with the organizations forming
> > > > Anarchist Platform.
> 
> So the post say he is a member of sorts in the sender collective. If the
> post was not
> sent in order to serve the Anarchist Platform it was not including this
> fact and
> was including some kind of request to help that person.
> 
> In Turkey and abroad there are both anarchist prisoners support group
> and Turkish army services resisters support group.
> 
> Both groups joined the strong criticism of this Anarchist Platform
> federation.
> 
> > > > >
> 
> Their claim that the distribution of this post by a-infos was the
> condition
> of some misterious group in Europe for helping Manuel Munzur
> is both "new" and unbelievable.
> Ilan
> See bellow.
> 
> 
> > -------- Original Message --------
> > Subject: A-infos: Anarchism or Censorship?
> > Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2001 23:00:10 -0500 (EST)
> > From: Kara Karaoglu <anarsi-AT-mail.com>
> > To:
> >
> > A-INFOS: ANARCHISM OR CENSORSHIP?
> >
> > A-infos workers had decided not to distribute Anarchist Platform^Òs and
> > its
> > former organisations^Ò (Anarchist Youth Federation, The Masterless,
> > Social
> > Ecologist Transformation) posts because of a speculative event.
> 
> The speculation was only from the side of the attackers who
> gambled that their terrorist acts against anarchist comrades in Turkey
> will not be shared with the international anarchist movement.
> 
> > That^Òs
> > OK.,
> > we don^Òt care a lot how the ^Óworker^Ôs use their authority and how much
> > they
> > love to use it.
> 
> The workers of a-infos collective have no authority of their own.
> 
> They are delegates of the whole collective.
> 
> The specific decision of the collective to ban the "anarchist platform"
> followed information from Turkish comrades from various countries.
> 
> > But a few days ago, a post was sent by us to A-infos
> > about
> > an anarchist comrade, Manuel Munzur, who had been in prison in for 5
> > years,
> > and who refuses the military service and is sentenced to 4 and a half
> > year
> > because of  another political crime (he is fugitive now).
> 
> It is entirely irrelevant what the post they send contain - as long as
> it
> mention the banned federation. If they were sincere, they could always
> find an anarchist comrade in Turkey that will send the text for
> distribution.
> 
> > This post was
> > not
> > a propaganda article, it was noticed that it had been urgent and
> > important.
> > Our comrade, who is not a member of the Anarchist Platform, but a
> > comrade,
> > needed this post to be distributed by A-infos for escaping abroad from
> > the
> > sate^Òs oppression (The ones who will help him in Europe wanted this post
> > from A-infos).
> 
> I just wonder who needs a-infos recommendation about a member
> of a suspect group.
> 
> I wonder also why no other anarchist group from Turkey found it
> worth sending this information to a-infos.
> 
> 
> > But A-infos refused to distribute it! After that, we sent
> > an
> > e-mail and told again that it was not a propaganda article and very
> > important for our comrade^Òs life.
> 
> You can always print in green letters a post that claim to be only
> written in black.
> 
> If the said people so much value the help this person needs,
> they only have to send a short post to clear the case of their physical
> attack
> on an anarchist activist.
> 
> > And we wrote what they were doing was
> > censorship and serving the state.
> 
> Attacking physically an anarchist comrade is placing the attackers out
> of the anarchist movement.
> 
> > However the post was never distributed.
> 
> A-infos make efforts not to distribute texts from unreliable sources.
> 
> > Anyone may accept or refuse the reasons why that action had been taken.
> > But
> > first he/she has to think (of course, if he/she doesn^Òt have a hidden
> > intent) about the point that one of the former organisations of
> > Anarchist
> > Platform, Anarchist Youth Federation, declared a year ago: ^ÓWe don^Òt use
> > violence, but in the position of defence.^Ô This sentence is valid since
> > it
> > was declared and also it is valid for the other former organisations,
> > too.
> > Anyway, this is not the main problem.
> 
> We just wonder how a planned attack of an armed group of people against
> one unarmed person, which sent him in critical condition to hospital
> can be presented as a defence.
> 
> Nor is it easy to see how threats of criticizes can be regarded as
> defence.
> 
> > The main problem is that the
> > A-infos
> > workers play the role of judge! (And as you'll read below, he is trying
> > to
> > despise what we said just like the "smart" judges!) Do they have a right
> > to
> > judge and sentence an anarchist organisation to be censored and a
> > comrade's
> > life to be given into state^Òs hands? Is A-infos ^Óby, for and about
> > anarchists^Ô or ^Óby, for and about SOME anarchists^Ô?!
> 
> Of course a-infos is not by for and about any one who self labeled
> hirself
> as anarchist. It is by some anarchists - members of the collective, who
> distribute to subscribers mainly, parts of the posts we find most
> contributing
> to the struggle - as we see it.
> 
> > If Manuel Munzur is caught by the state (because this censorship delays his
> > escaping), can their conscience carry this load?
> 
> According to that twisted logic, the "comrades in Europe who insist
> to get a-infos approval" are more to blame, and of course the person who
> complain who composed / concocted so stupid text and think any one will
> believe it.
> 
> > WE PROTEST A-INFOS^Ò CENSORSHIP!
> > WE HATE JUDGES, EVEN IF THEY CALL THEMSELVES ^ÓWORKERS^Ô!
> >
> > ANARCHIST PLATFORM
> > p.s. : The posts sent by us and by the worker are below.
> >
> > --- Ilan Shalif <gshalif-AT-netvision.net.il> wrote:
> > > Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 23:06:33 +0200
> > > From: Ilan Shalif <gshalif-AT-netvision.net.il>
> > > To: ozan oyunbozan <aefendisizler-AT-yahoo.com>, org
> > > <a-infos-org-AT-ainfos.ca>
> > > Subject: Re: BOUNCE a-infos-AT-ainfos.ca: Approval
> > > required:
> > >
> > > Hi People.
> > > After the physical attack on a comrade,
> > > It was decided by the a-infos collective
> > > to refrain from distribution of any text related to
> > > the AGF and the Anarchist Platform group
> > > till the case will be cleared.
> > >
> > > Till now we have not received from the AGF and the
> > > Anarchist
> > > Platform group any explanation (in English) that
> > > will explain this.
> > >
> > > May be you can convince the injured person and his
> > > comrades to send
> > > your posts to us?
> > >
> > > ozan oyunbozan (aefendisizler-AT-yahoo.com) wrote:
> > >
> > > > This is censorship! We tell you that IT IS NOT A
> > > > PROPAGANDA ARTICLE AND IS VERY IMPORTANT FOR
> > > MANUEL'S
> > > > LIFE!
> > >
> > > a-infos is a propaganda tool - not a journalism
> > > hobby. The posts distributed
> > > are selected according to collective guide lines to
> > > make
> > > good propaganda for the anarchist theory.
> > >
> > > > What you are doing now is serving the state!
> > >
> > > So said also Trotskist and other authoritarians or
> > > just
> > > contributors of not relevant texts we refuse to
> > > distribute their texts.
> > >
> > > > We had sent a Turkish Explanation to
> > > > a-infos-tr-AT-ainfos.ca days ago, but it wasn't
> > > > distributed either. We don't care how you use your
> > > > "authority",
> > >
> > > We do not have any "authority". We just have our
> > > work
> > > we contribute and decide autonomously how to
> > > allocate it.
> > >
> > > > but the life of our comrade, who is not
> > > > from Anarchist Platform, only an anarchist
> > > comrade,
> > > > has been dangered by state and now by you!
> > >
> > > I wonder why only texts connecting him to the
> > > Anarchist Platform
> > > were received.
> 
> >
> > > >
> > > > Manuel Munzur has been in close relationships with
> > > Anarchist Platform and
> > > > definetly  he will continue being in touch with
> > > the organizations forming
> > > > Anarchist Platform.
> > > >
> > > Any way, it seems you exaggerate our weight and
> > > importance.
> > > We just have a small band width of the internet.
> > >
> > > > If you want, distribute the post with your name.
> > > What
> > > > is important here is the distribution of the post,
> > > not
> > > > the name of the sender.
> > >
> > > We do not edit posts which come from anarchist
> > > groups.
> > >
> > > As I said, convince some of the comrades of the
> > > attacked
> > > person to send this information.
> > >
> > > > Hoping you'll behave accordingly.
> > >
> > > If you cannot convince any other anarchist
> > > collective
> > > in Turkey, better try to convince us with a text in
> > > English
> > > about your perception of the physical conflict.
> > > Ilan
> > > worker
> > > a-infos
> > >
> > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --- Ilan Shalif <gshalif-AT-netvision.net.il> wrote:
> > > > > Hi People
> > > > >
> > > > > Due to the physical attack in Turkey on a
> > > comrade by
> > > > > seemingly people of your Anarchist Platform
> > > group,
> > > > > and following a-infos collective decision, no
> > > posts
> > > > > of yours
> > > > > will be distributed till the point is cleared.
> > > > >
> > > > > Please stop sending posts to a-infos.
> > > > > Ilan
> > > > >
> > > > > worker a-infos
> > > > >
> > > > > > >From anarsi-AT-mail.com  Tue Feb 27 19:04:19
> > > 2001
> > > > > > Return-Path: <anarsi-AT-mail.com>
> > > > > > Received: from rmx420-mta.mail.com
> > > > > (rmx420-mta.mail.com [165.251.48.152])
> > > > > >         by toronto.ainfos.ca (Postfix) with
> > > ESMTP
> > > > > id AAAB71C1F7
> > > > > >         for <a-infos-AT-ainfos.ca>; Tue, 27 Feb
> > > 2001
> > > > > 19:04:18 -0500 (EST)
> > > > > > Received: from web582-mc (web582-mc.mail.com
> > > > > [165.251.48.95])
> > > > > >         by rmx420-mta.mail.com (8.9.3/8.9.3)
> > > with
> > > > > SMTP id TAA04052
> > > > > >         for <a-infos-AT-ainfos.ca>; Tue, 27 Feb
> > > 2001
> > > > > 19:08:30 -0500 (EST)
> > > > > > Message-ID:
> > > > > <381902212.983318910075.JavaMail.root-AT-web582-mc>
> > > > > > Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 19:08:30 -0500 (EST)
> > > > > > From: Kara Karaoglu <anarsi-AT-mail.com>
> > > > > > To: a-infos-AT-ainfos.ca
> > > > > > Subject: About Manuel Munzur: important and
> > > urgent
> > > > > > Mime-Version: 1.0
> > > > > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
> > > > > > Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
> > > > > > X-Mailer: mail.com
> > > > > > X-Originating-IP: 212.253.3.44
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Comrade Manuel Munzur had been  in prison,
> > > where
> > > > > he went into as an
> > > > > > anarchist, for 5 years, and   was conditionaly
> > > > > released. But  due to
> > > > > > damaging state property during a riot in the
> > > > > prison, he has been again
> > > > > > punished with four years and six month prison
> > > > > sentence. At the same time,
> > > > > > he has been wanted as he refused to go in
> > > army.
> > > > > Our comrade who has been
> > > > > > suffering from health problems  due to
> > > > > imprisonment in unhealty conditions
> > > > > > and torture, has  security problems in these
> > > days.
> > > > > Manuel Munzur has been in
> > > > > > close relationships with Anarchist Platform
> > > and
> > > > > definetly  he will continue
> > > > > > being in touch with the organizations forming
> > > > > Anarchist Platform.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > ______________________________________________
> > > > > > FREE Personalized Email at Mail.com
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