Date: 4 Jun 2001 21:35:52 -0700
From: Kevin Kinkel <shevek-AT-altavista.com>
Subject: Re:  Re:  [CP-List] Decentralized opposition


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Subject: Re:
	Re:
	[CP-List] Decentralized opposition
To: Murphwild1-AT-aol.com
From: Kevin Kinkel <shevek-AT-altavista.com>
Date: 04 Jun 2001 19:49:00 PDT

>On Mon, 04 June 2001, Murphwild1-AT-aol.com wrote:
>
> 
> "Also, I would tend to think that if someone is to blame for throwing 
> innocent people in prison, it is the police, and not the activists.  It is a 
> strange twist of logic to hold the enemies of the state accountable for state 
> actions."
> 
> 
> This is bullshit.   I hear it time and again.  Yes, the state is replete with 
> instances of sending innocent people to jail, for myriad injustices.  But in 
> the case of SABOTAGE AND ARSON, (not monkeywrenching) If you are going to 
> commit crimes and then hide, what do you think the state is fucking going to 
> do??

I think the state will try and throw someone in jail, regardless of their innocence.  How does this involve me?  Am I throwing anybody in jail?  Am I supporting the state in their action?  Tell me, if I am struggling against the state, and you threaten to kill my dog if I attend a particular rally, am I then to blame when I attend that rally and you kill my dog?

What I said here is only logic, and if logic is bullshit to you, then so be it.

>Let me ask you this:  If you committed a crime and KNEW someone else got 
>arrested for it, would you come forward and set that person free?

No.  I would feel bad that someone got sent to jail for something I did, but I would also know that I was not responsible.  I personally would give myself up if any action I committed against the state lead to the harming of an innocent, but that is a completely different matter, nor would I expect others to give themselves up for the same reason.

> You cannot divorce yourself from your actions and then just blame it on "the 
> state." 

I'm not divorcing myself from my actions.  Here you seem to be taking the state's side, in that you are arguing that because arson is against the law I should be willing to face the consequences of that law.  Guess what?  I don't believe in state law, so I could give a rats ass about violating that law to do what I think is right.  I take full responsibility for my action, but that doesn't mean I allow the state to administer what it thinks is the responsibility for my actions.  Besides, my actions are meant to free people, not imprison them, the imprisonment of innocents is the action of the state.
   
> Captain Watson went nearly twenty years destroying whaling and fishing 
> vessels in the high seas, a good percentage of the time with people on the 
> vessels, without hurting anyone.  Only recently did someone, a fellow 
> eco-warrior on his own ship (i believe), get hurt--a broken leg or something.
> 
> Mr. Watson proudly announced and did his "crimes" in full veiw of the public. 

Good for him.  I might even do the same in the same situation, but that is not what we were talking about.  We were talking about a series of high profile arsons with absolutely no casualties.

> Arson and firebombs brings a different penalty under current US law.  

Ah, so because arson has a different penalty under US law that means I should give myself up if I am an arsonist rather than if I destroy property in a less flashy way?  How is that again?  Really, it sounds to me as though you think I should care about what the US government believes is correct or incorrect behavior on the part of its drones.

> Why burn three logging trucks and send pollution into the air, when, it 
> that's what they wanted to do, the ELF could have destroyed them in silence 
> and emit nothing into the air?  Think of all the pollution emitted with the 
> burning of those SUV's the "ELF" claimed responsiblity for.  Granted, it 
> would have been time consuming to destroy them all in silence.

Sure, and it would have gotten less press.  I actually agree with you on this one, but all in all I say it is far better to have burned those SUVs then done nothing at all.  There are advantages and disadvantages to this kind of action, but you seem to think that a blanket statement disavowing all such actions is called for.  I do not.


> Abbey's book Heyduke Lives, remember there is human death in this, and it was 
> a book of fiction.
> 
> Also, ELF (has) claimed responsiblity for tree spikings.  

It isn't hard for some jerk to spike a tree and say he is part of the ELF.  However, I didn't claim that the ELF never spiked trees, I simply claimed that such actions hurt the ELF cause and that there has yet to be a casualty of ELF actions.

> Myself, I think the Government is ELF, or was in the beginning.  

It is certainly possible that some actions by the ELF were done by government agents, but I seriously doubt that this is true of all or even most of them.  Second guessing every activist project only leads to the kind of disunity the government wants, and will never tell us who is responsible for any given act.  It is for this reason that I think we should judge ELF actions one at a time, in their context, and for themselves, rather than try and throw mud into the blender by claiming the ELF to really be the government.

I have personally at times wondered if some government agent didn't see good reason to burn down the lodge in Aspen in order to get a good excuse to raid all the enviromentalist groups in the area.  The secrecy of the ELF is definately a potential danger, but in today's world it happens to also be their only measure of defense.  Thus far the ELF has served to cause millions of dollars in property destruction that would never have happened had they come forward every time they set a fire.  Even if the government did burn down the Aspen lodge, they ended up hurting themselves as much as helping, with no loss to the operational status of the ELF.  It seems to me that all the activists groups being harassed by the government would do better to learn from the success of the ELF, rather than to bad mouth it for not being so naive as to hand themselves over to their opponents.

                                                           Kevin K.  


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