Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 20:48:05 -0500
From: danceswithcarp <dcombs-AT-bloomington.in.us>
Subject: Re: Attacks on Afghanistan


At 06:47 PM 10/10/2001 -0700, gracchus wrote:
>carpo, me mate, i think you underestimate the ruthlessness of your
>government.  if nuking a-land would stop even another minor attack,
>much less a biological assault, then shrub, et. al. would have already
>done it.  most of the real capability of these guys lies outside of
>the middle east, mostly in europe, asia, and the u$.

Well, I must disagree.  Much the same as Gandhi and MLK Jr had their 
successes because of the existence of liberal states and the need for 
liberals states to at least play lip service to the body politic, the U$ is 
in the straightjacket of their own making.  Altruism in a state, whether 
real or imagined, means the state must at least follow a scripted restraint 
of sorts.  Had the WTC attack happened in Soviet Russia or China I haven't 
the slightest doubt the issue would be settled by now; there would be no 
Afghanistan.   Remember, the UK was to going to launch on Argentina if one 
of the carriers went down?   Even though they too masquerade as the liberal 
state they were locked and loaded.   So under the circumstances I have to 
say the U$ has exercised remarkable restraint.


>no, i can't feel anything except regret that the most powerful
>military on earth feels disposed to bomb the poorest, most
>god-forsaken pile of rubble on the planet.  maybe it makes somebody,
>somewhere feel better or more secure to rearrange the rubble and push
>even more desperate, hungry folks onto the roads and through the
>minefields.

What would you have the U$ do?   Surrender to those who make terror in 
order to inflict an even more repressive regime?

>don't know that these people would see it your way; they might feel
>that it's really their business who oppresses 'em.  if somebody bombed
>seattle, i reckon i'd be pissed even if i did oppose the govt.

Who says a lot of the afghanis are pissed?   Only the taliban and those El 
Kabong people.   I think what we americans have been subject to is the 
distortions of the media; just because a couple of hundred looney Pakis or 
Indonesians burn a flag and go bonkers does not mean that the entire 
islamic community feels that way.  I think what speaks more for the afghani 
people is that many are voting with their feet.   There have been no huge 
spontaneous anti-american rallies in Afghanistan.   if the people there are 
pissed at us, should there not be some evidence?


>frankly, i doubt if the taliban had much to do with the WTC.  binL and
>his "afghan arabs" are really a creature and product of the west.  if
>we want to root him out, carp, i agree we should bomb the sources of
>his power.  you know, places like the world trade center and the
>pentagon.

Frankly, rog, dear sport, I am surprised to read such tired rhetoric from 
someone as wirld-view empowered as you.  The taliban were funded by the 
CIA.  Dr. Frankenstein created his man.  The taliban became the 
monster.   Frankenstein's man became a monster.   Frankenstein's intent was 
not to create a monster.  I am astounded to continually hear that it was 
the U$ intent to create a monster.  The U$ intent was to bankrupt the 
U$$R.  I just don't make the leap that because the U$ had a hand in the 
taliban's regression (I'm not sure "revolution" describes what they 
imposed)  the U$ must be totally responsible for the errant and repressive 
ways that have evolved.   Seriously, do you really believe the U$ knew how 
this would end?   I do recall you made such a sterling defense of a purer 
form of islam a couple of weeks ago.  if the U$ had not the intention to 
create the monster but yet the monster was created, then too would not the 
purer islamics be guilty even though the islamic never _intended_ for the 
taliban to go absurd?

Or perhaps the the U$ should *not* have resisted the imperialism of the 
state socialism of the Soviets and their puppets?  Are we arguing who would 
be the better slavemaster?  I mean are you speaking in the 
real-here-and-now, or as a theorist?

Again, it is the existence of liberal states that allows us to discuss and 
practice anti-authoritarianism.   I'm not saying wirship at the altar of 
the corporate state.  But I am saying if the alternative is nothing but 
total annihilation of the earth, ....well,  given the thought of my death 
and the end of humynity through biological warfare,  the idea that 
flattening Afghanistan, Sudan or anywhere else that people make 
bio-weapons, in order to preserve humynkind so we can continue to bicker 
about whether such a move would be Just isn't much of a quandary at 
all.   I like bickering.




carp