Date: Wed, 5 Feb 2003 10:55:29 +0000 (GMT)
From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Volodya=20V=20Anarhist?= <volodyanarchist-AT-yahoo.com>
Subject: RE: Rights vs. Freedom


> and the person who claims to be called "Freedom" (in Russian)

Well, actually you are probably refering to the word "Volya" which
does indead mean "freedom" as for "VolodyA!" that is my name (Volodya
is a derivative for Vladimir just as Dave is one for David... right)

> wrote
> 
> 
> > "Rights" are for the slaves. 
> 
> 
> No, as a matter of fact, this is not strictly true. 
> For example, when the USA had actual human slavery, 
> which was less than a hundred and fifty years ago, 
> the slaves had no rights. 

USA still has "human slavery". Read the constitution "Slavery is
abolished in all cases except as a punishment for the crime" (or
something very close to that). So here we go, the "rights" that
prisoners have right now are only given to them to pacify them (just
like slaves had some rights during the slavery... such as on some
plantations the owner allowed slaves to chose collectively who lived
in what barracs, which channeled anger of the slaves toward each
other).

> > Citizens of the country have rights
> 
> 
> Yes, that is true. And when the USA finally, reluctantly,
> decided to follow the examples set earlier by the British
> and French Empires, by abolishing actual human slavery
> and beginning to acknowledge the possibility that
> the former slaves just might be citizens, this
> was a limited but nevertheless significant
> advance for human freedom.

Yes and US Democrats are better than US Republicans... give me a
break.

> > free persons on the other hand have freedom (undevisible)
> 
> 
> Who was it that said "strong walls do not a prison make,
> nor iron bars a cage"? Was it Milton? Anyway, whoever
> it was, they were making the point that your  _mind_
> can be free even in prison. An admirable sentiment,
> no doubt, but the fact nevertheless remains, many prisons 
> are indeed made out of strong walls and iron bars. 

And? I agree with that... So?

> > Animals don't have a consept of that... or they 
> > just understand that so much better than we can 
> > emagine right now... so they fight for their freedom 
> 
> 
> It is  _not_  true that "animals" fight for their freedom.
> If you try to cage an animal, it will indeed try to
> avoid this; but it does so instinctively and as one
> individual animal. Most animals are incapable even
> of banding together with significant numbers of their
> own species in order to fight for their freedom, 
> never mind with members of other species. Let me 
> know when Tom (the cat), Jerry (the mouse) and Fido 
> (the dog) all band together as "animals" to fight for 
> their freedom, and I will believe there is something 
> in what you are saying.

OK, so there are many Homo Sapiens who don't join together with other
species to fight for their freedom. Tiger can try to eat you and some
lamb, but you are not trying to join up with that lamb, so can i say
that you are not trying to avoid being eaten strictly because you are
not using all the possible means to strengthen yourself (joining
together that is). And didn't i say that animals ("we" not "they")
fight for the freedom in the way that this list defines that fight.

> > The most rights was given by Stalin's constitution... 
> 
> 
> That is true.
> 
> Look, I'm not the one who is hung up on this concept
> of "rights" granted by the state. It's the "animal
> rights" advocates who see things in those terms, 
> not me.
> 
> 
> > If anybody wishes to say that Stalin was 
> > a freedom fighter... i'll listen to your 
> > arguments
> 
> 
> You are a foolish, pathetic individual who 
> doesn't know his arse from his elbow, 
> and furthermore, your aim is so far off, 
> you couldn't hit a cow's arse with a banjo. 
> I don't give a squelchy wet fart whether 
> you listen to my arguments or not. 
> Your support for them is not necessary.
> 
> 
> Dave Coull

No you are.

OK, i do respect you oppinion... that is so abviously wrong.
Now please excuse me i'm at wirk right now.

                          - VolodyA! V Anarhist

====

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