File spoon-archives/anarchy-list.archive/anarchy-list_2003/anarchy-list.0307, message 17


Date: Wed, 2 Jul 2003 19:19:02 -0700 (PDT)
From: Ali Kazmi <thekazmis2001-AT-yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Workings of an ideal government


Thank you for proving that you have still have a long
way to go before crossing the River Senile to the
Isles of Dementia. 

--- Old Goat <olgoat-AT-nebi.com> wrote:
> Having more recently emerged from a tribal community
> (or,
> perhaps, more accurately "semi-emerged") I find the
> distinction
> less problematic.  This is not to say that I endorse
> Bastiat, I
> just used the quote as a dig at those who ought be
> familiar with
> his ideas even though the may not subscribe to them.
> 
> Tribally speaking, custom came long before
> codification and
> custom recognised those things that an individual or
> a clan
> (collectively) possessed as property.  The codified
> "Thou shalt
> not steal (from your own)," was observed and
> violations were
> dealt with long before anyone thought to write it
> down.
> 
> Of course, being nomads, real (estate) property was
> a concept
> that didn't enter into our thinking and only became
> reality (no
> pun)--by extension of the established custom--once
> we began to
> settle.  I can still get an argument within my own
> clan on this,
> but I have no problem with in use real property so
> long as my
> usage is for production and not for pre-emption or
> exclusion.
> 
> old goat
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Shawn P. Wilbur" <swilbur-AT-wcnet.org>
> To: <anarchy-list-AT-lists.village.virginia.edu>
> Sent: Wednesday, July 02, 2003 9:32 AM
> Subject: Re: Workings of an ideal government
> 
> 
> > If "property" in the economic sense existed
> "before the law"
> (in
> > a formal sense), then you either have to have
> recourse to some
> > form of "natural rights" metaphysic (where the
> idea of property
> > exists apart from social negotiations over what is
> proper to
> each
> > member of society) or to some informal, customary
> consensus
> > on the matter. The first approach seems an
> unsupportable
> > idealism. The second seems better addressed by
> folks like
> > Proudhon and Skidmore who acknowledge an
> historical
> > development in the relations we'll call
> "property," and the
> > possibility of radical transvaluation of these
> relations and
> > the values that are a part of them.
> >
> > Seems like i addressed one of MA Johnson's Bastiat
> quotes
> > at length a couple of years back, but i don't see
> the post
> > right now.
> >
> > -shawn
> >
> > Old Goat wrote:
> >
> > > Sometimes youse guy plumb worry me, you truly
> do. ;^)
> > >
> > > old goat
> > > "Life, liberty, and property do not exist
> because men made
> laws.
> > > On the contrary, it was the fact that life,
> liberty, and
> property
> > > existed beforehand that caused men to make laws
> in the first
> > > place."
> > > Frederic Bastiat, "The Law," June 1850
> >
> >
> 


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