Date: Wed, 2 Jul 2003 19:19:02 -0700 (PDT) From: Ali Kazmi <thekazmis2001-AT-yahoo.com> Subject: Re: Workings of an ideal government Thank you for proving that you have still have a long way to go before crossing the River Senile to the Isles of Dementia. --- Old Goat <olgoat-AT-nebi.com> wrote: > Having more recently emerged from a tribal community > (or, > perhaps, more accurately "semi-emerged") I find the > distinction > less problematic. This is not to say that I endorse > Bastiat, I > just used the quote as a dig at those who ought be > familiar with > his ideas even though the may not subscribe to them. > > Tribally speaking, custom came long before > codification and > custom recognised those things that an individual or > a clan > (collectively) possessed as property. The codified > "Thou shalt > not steal (from your own)," was observed and > violations were > dealt with long before anyone thought to write it > down. > > Of course, being nomads, real (estate) property was > a concept > that didn't enter into our thinking and only became > reality (no > pun)--by extension of the established custom--once > we began to > settle. I can still get an argument within my own > clan on this, > but I have no problem with in use real property so > long as my > usage is for production and not for pre-emption or > exclusion. > > old goat > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Shawn P. Wilbur" <swilbur-AT-wcnet.org> > To: <anarchy-list-AT-lists.village.virginia.edu> > Sent: Wednesday, July 02, 2003 9:32 AM > Subject: Re: Workings of an ideal government > > > > If "property" in the economic sense existed > "before the law" > (in > > a formal sense), then you either have to have > recourse to some > > form of "natural rights" metaphysic (where the > idea of property > > exists apart from social negotiations over what is > proper to > each > > member of society) or to some informal, customary > consensus > > on the matter. The first approach seems an > unsupportable > > idealism. The second seems better addressed by > folks like > > Proudhon and Skidmore who acknowledge an > historical > > development in the relations we'll call > "property," and the > > possibility of radical transvaluation of these > relations and > > the values that are a part of them. > > > > Seems like i addressed one of MA Johnson's Bastiat > quotes > > at length a couple of years back, but i don't see > the post > > right now. > > > > -shawn > > > > Old Goat wrote: > > > > > Sometimes youse guy plumb worry me, you truly > do. ;^) > > > > > > old goat > > > "Life, liberty, and property do not exist > because men made > laws. > > > On the contrary, it was the fact that life, > liberty, and > property > > > existed beforehand that caused men to make laws > in the first > > > place." > > > Frederic Bastiat, "The Law," June 1850 > > > > > __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! http://sbc.yahoo.com
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