From: "Bob Gambs" <goatclan-AT-charter.net> Subject: Re: yippi yi eh (Saddam is still with the Iraqis) Date: Fri, 30 Apr 2004 00:20:46 -0500 BTW, anybody planning on doing Indy this year? Goat ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ali Kazmi" <thekazmis2001-AT-yahoo.com> To: "dan combs" <dcombs-AT-bloomington.in.us>; <anarchy-list-AT-lists.village.Virginia.EDU> Sent: Friday, April 30, 2004 00:09 Subject: RE: yippi yi eh (Saddam is still with the Iraqis) > --- dan combs <dcombs-AT-bloomington.in.us> wrote: > > > > What are you, trolling for bondage kicks? > > > > Must be the canuck beer. That shit packs a wallop, > > neh? > > > > > > carp > > The Canuck Beer does pack a wallop, but have been > drinking Faxe, brewed in Denmark, 10%, it can drop > kick a heifer from 60 yards. > > I prefer my bondage in person, where is Rosaphila > these days, BTW? > > The CBS article which broke the story (tagged below) > carried the kicker at the end. > > Excerpt > "Two weeks ago, 60 Minutes II received an appeal from > the Defense Department, and eventually from the > Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, Gen. Richard > Myers, to delay this broadcast -- given the danger and > tension on the ground in Iraq. > 60 Minutes II decided to honor that request, while > pressing for the Defense Department to add its > perspective to the incidents at Abu Ghraib prison. > This week, with the photos beginning to circulate > elsewhere, and with other journalists about to publish > their versions of the story, the Defense Department > agreed to cooperate in our report." > > Basically, CBS decided to suppress the story, and only > broadcast it when it came out from other sources. And > it seems that CBS is still sitting on the majority of > the pictures. If this story hadn't broken elsewhere, > CBS would have sat on it till after the elections. > > The biggest propoganda, or spin as it is now called, > coup of the Bush regime was the equation of "Support > our troops" with support the war. If you spoke out > against the war, you were not "supporting" the troops. > > > The only way the Americans can truly support their > troops is to bring them back home. Mostly from low > income families, they are in the army for the meal > ticket. They are cannon fodder. Disposable instruments > of the will of leaders hiding in their whitehouses or > caves. Controlled by lies, fighting to enrich or feed > the megalomania of their leaders. That is the lot of > the grunt. Not much has changed since the gladiators > died for the Cesars amusement. now for an oilman's > greed. > > Pictures, like Faxe Beer, pack quite a wallop. They > can sway public opinion much more strongly then > articles and speeches. (Remember the monk setting > himself on fire, or the viet cong getting his brains > blown out?) And America needs its opinions swayed. It > needs reminding where the "Buck Stops". > I don't think the american public will think less of > its soldiers if shown these pictures, it is usually a > tiny minority doing these things, but they may > question why they are there. And try to bring them > back. > > And the media, which so effectively drummed in the > "Support your troops = Support the war" message, > are now conducting political self-censorship. Heard > Koppel is being pulled off republican local stations. > What next? > > What are you drinking these days? > > Cheers. > > Ali > > > > U.S. Soldiers Charged With Abusing Iraqi Prisoners > > A 60 Minutes II Special Report > > Apr 29, 2004 4:38 am US/Mountain > NEW YORK (CBS News) Last month, the U.S. Army > announced 17 soldiers in Iraq, including a brigadier > general, had been removed from duty after charges of > mistreating Iraqi prisoners. > > But the details of what happened have been kept > secret, until now. > > It turns out photographs surfaced showing American > soldiers abusing and humiliating Iraqis being held at > a prison near Baghdad. The Army investigated, and > issued a scathing report. > > Now, an Army general and her command staff may face > the end of long military careers. And six soldiers are > facing court martial in Iraq -- and possible prison > time. > Correspondent Dan Rather talks to one of those > soldiers. And, for the first time, 60 Minutes II will > show some of the pictures that led to the Army > investigation. > > According to the U.S. Army, one Iraqi prisoner was > told to stand on a box with his head covered, wires > attached to his hands. He was told that if he fell off > the box, he would be electrocuted. > > It was this picture, and dozens of others, that > prompted an investigation by the U.S. Army. On > Tuesday, 60 Minutes II asked Brig. Gen. Mark Kimmitt, > deputy director of coalition operations in Iraq, what > went wrong. > > "Frankly, I think all of us are disappointed by the > actions of the few," says Kimmitt. "Every day, we love > our soldiers, but frankly, some days we're not always > proud of our soldiers." > > For decades under Saddam Hussein, many prisoners who > were taken to the Abu Ghraib prison never came out. It > was the centerpiece of Saddam's empire of fear, and > those prisoners who did make it out told nightmarish > tales of torture beyond imagining - and executions > without reason. > > 60 Minutes II talked about the prison and shared > pictures of what Americans did there with two men who > have extensive interrogation experience: Former Marine > Lt. Col. Bill Cowan and former CIA Bureau Chief Bob > Baer. > > "I visited Abu Ghraib a couple of days after it was > liberated. It was the most awful sight I've ever seen. > I said, 'If there's ever a reason to get rid of Saddam > Hussein, it's because of Abu Ghraib,'" says Baer. > "There were bodies that were eaten by dogs, torture. > You know, electrodes coming out of the walls. It was > an awful place." > > "We went into Iraq to stop things like this from > happening, and indeed, here they are happening under > our tutelage," says Cowan. > > It was American soldiers serving as military police at > Abu Ghraib who took these pictures. The investigation > started when one soldier got them from a friend, and > gave them to his commanders. 60 Minutes II has a dozen > of these pictures, and there are many more - pictures > that show Americans, men and women in military > uniforms, posing with naked Iraqi prisoners. > > There are shots of the prisoners stacked in a pyramid, > one with a slur written on his skin in English. > > In some, the male prisoners are positioned to simulate > sex with each other. And in most of the pictures, the > Americans are laughing, posing, pointing, or giving > the camera a thumbs-up. > > 60 Minutes II was only able to contact one of the > soldiers facing charges. But the Army says they are > all in Iraq, awaiting court martial. > > "What can the Army say specifically to Iraqis and > others who are going to see this and take it > personally," Rather asked Kimmitt, in an interview > conducted by satellite from Baghdad. > > "The first thing I'd say is we're appalled as well. > These are our fellow soldiers. These are the people we > work with every day, and they represent us. They wear > the same uniform as us, and they let their fellow > soldiers down," says Kimmitt. > > "Our soldiers could be taken prisoner as well. And we > expect our soldiers to be treated well by the > adversary, by the enemy. And if we can't hold > ourselves up as an example of how to treat people with > dignity and respect . We can't ask that other nations > to that to our soldiers as well." > > "So what would I tell the people of Iraq? This is > wrong. This is reprehensible. But this is not > representative of the 150,000 soldiers that are over > here," adds Kimmitt. "I'd say the same thing to the > American people... Don't judge your army based on the > actions of a few." > > One of the soldiers facing court martial is Army > Reserve Staff Sgt. Chip Frederick. > > Frederick is charged with maltreatment for allegedly > participating in and setting up a photo, and for > posing in a photograph by sitting on top of a > detainee. He is charged with an indecent act for > observing one scene. He is also charged with assault > for allegedly striking detainees - and ordering > detainees to strike each other. > > 60 Minutes II talked with him by phone from Baghdad, > where he is awaiting court martial. > > Frederick told us he will plead not guilty, claiming > the way the Army was running the prison led to the > abuse of prisoners. > > "We had no support, no training whatsoever. And I kept > asking my chain of command for certain things...like > rules and regulations," says Frederick. "And it just > wasn't happening." > > Six months before he faced a court martial, Frederick > sent home a video diary of his trip across the > country. Frederick, a reservist, said he was proud to > serve in Iraq. He seemed particularly well-suited for > the job at Abu Ghraib. He's a corrections officer at a > Virginia prison, whose warden described Frederick to > us as "one of the best." > > Frederick says Americans came into the prison: "We had > military intelligence, we had all kinds of other > government agencies, FBI, CIA ... All those that I > didn't even know or recognize." > > Frederick's letters and email messages home also offer > clues to problems at the prison. He wrote that he was > helping the interrogators: > > "Military intelligence has encouraged and told us > 'Great job.' " > > "They usually don't allow others to watch them > interrogate. But since they like the way I run the > prison, they have made an exception." > > "We help getting them to talk with the way we handle > them. ... We've had a very high rate with our style of > getting them to break. They usually end up breaking > within hours." > > According to the Army's own investigation, that's what > was happening. The Army found that interrogators asked > reservists working in the prison to prepare the Iraqi > detainees, physically and mentally, for questioning. > > "What, if any actions, are being taken against the > interrogators? > > "I hope the investigation is including not only the > people who committed the crimes, but some of the > people that might have encouraged these crimes as > well," says Kimmitt. "Because they certainly share > some level of responsibility as well." > > But so far, none of the interrogators at Abu Ghraib > are facing criminal charges. In fact, a number of them > are civilians, and military law doesn't apply to them. > > > One of the civilian interrogators at Abu Ghraib was > questioned by the Army, and he told investigators he > had "broken several tables during interrogations, > unintentionally," while trying to "fear up" prisoners. > He denied hurting anyone. > > In our phone conversation, 60 Minutes II asked > Frederick whether he had seen any prisoners beaten. > > "I saw things. We had to use force sometimes to get > the inmates to cooperate, just like our rules of > engagement said," says Frederick. "We learned a little > bit of Arabic, basic commands. And they didn't want to > listen, so sometimes, you would just give them a > little nudge or something like that just to get them > to cooperate so we could get the mission > accomplished." > > Attorney Gary Myers and a judge advocate in Iraq are > defending Frederick. They say he should never have > been charged, because of the failure of his commanders > to provide proper training and standards. > > "The elixir of power, the elixir of believing that > you're helping the CIA, for God's sake, when you're > from a small town in Virginia, that's intoxicating," > says Myers. "And so, good guys sometimes do things > believing that they are being of assistance and > helping a just cause. ... And helping people they view > as important." > > Frederick says he didn't see a copy of the Geneva > Convention rules for handling prisoners of war until > after he was charged. > > The Army investigation confirms that soldiers at Abu > Ghraib were not trained at all in Geneva Convention > rules. And most were reservists, part-time soldiers > who didn't get the kind of specialized prisoner of war > training given to regular Army members. > > Frederick also says there were far too few soldiers > there for the number of prisoners: "There was, when I > left, there was over 900. And there was only five > soldiers, plus two non-commissioned officers, in > charge for those 900 -- over 900 inmates." > > Rather asked Kimmitt about understaffing. "That > doesn't condone individual acts of criminal behavior > no matter how tired we are. No matter how stretched we > are, that doesn't give us license and it doesn't give > us the authority to break the law," says Kimmitt. > > "That may have been a contributing factor, but at the > end of the day, this is probably more about > leadership, supervision, setting standards, abiding by > the Army values and understanding what's right, and > having the guts to say what's right." > > Brig. Gen. Janice Karpinsky ran Abu Ghraib for the > Army. She was also in charge of three other Army > prison facilities that housed thousands of Iraqi > inmates. > > The Army investigation determined that her lack of > leadership and clear standards led to problems system > wide. Karpinski talked with 60 Minutes' Steve Kroft > last October at Abu Ghraib, before any of this came > out. > > "This is international standards," said Karpinski. > "It's the best care available in a prison facility." > > But the Army investigation found serious problems > behind the scenes. The Army has photographs that show > a detainee with wires attached to his genitals. > Another shows a dog attacking an Iraqi prisoner. > Frederick said that dogs were "used for intimidation > factors." > > Part of the Army's own investigation is a statement > from an Iraqi detainee who charges a translator - > hired to work at the prison - with raping a male > juvenile prisoner: "They covered all the doors with > sheets. I heard the screaming. ...and the female > soldier was taking pictures." > > There is also a picture of an Iraqi man who appears to > be dead -- and badly beaten. > > "It's reprehensible that anybody would be taking a > picture of that situation," says Kimmitt. > > But what about the situation itself? > > "I don't know the facts surrounding what caused the > bruising and the bleeding," says Kimmitt. "If that is > also one of the charges being brought against the > soldiers, that too is absolutely unacceptable and > completely outside of what we expect of our soldiers > and our guards at the prisons." > > Is there any indication that similar actions may have > happened at other prisons? "I'd like to sit here and > say that these are the only prisoner abuse cases that > we're aware of, but we know that there have been some > other ones since we've been here in Iraq," says > Kimmitt. > > When Saddam ran Abu Ghraib prison, Iraqis were too > afraid to come ask for information on their family > members. > > When 60 Minutes II was there last month, hundreds had > gathered outside the gates, worried about what is > going on inside. > > "We will be paid back for this. These people at some > point will be let out," says Cowan. "Their families > are gonna know. Their friends are gonna know." > > This is a hard story to have to tell when Americans > are fighting and dying in Iraq. And for Cowan, it's a > personal issue. His son is an infantry soldier serving > in Iraq for the last four months. > > Rather asked Cowan what he would say to "that person > who is sitting in their living room and saying, 'I > wish they wouldn't do this. It's undermining our > troops and they shouldn't do it.'" > > "If we don't tell this story, these kinds of things > will continue. And we'll end up getting paid back 100 > or 1,000 times over," says Cowan. "Americans want to > be proud of each and everything that our servicemen > and women do in Iraq. We wanna be proud. We know > they're working hard. None of us, now, later, before > or during this conflict, should wanna let incidents > like this just pass." > > Kimmitt says the Army will not let what happened at > Abu Ghraib just pass. What does he think is the most > important thing for Americans to know about what has > happened? > > "I think two things. No. 1, this is a small minority > of the military, and No. 2, they need to understand > that is not the Army," says Kimmitt. "The Army is a > values-based organization. We live by our values. Some > of our soldiers every day die by our values, and these > acts that you see in these pictures may reflect the > actions of individuals, but by God, it doesn't reflect > my army." > > Two weeks ago, 60 Minutes II received an appeal from > the Defense Department, and eventually from the > Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, Gen. Richard > Myers, to delay this broadcast -- given the danger and > tension on the ground in Iraq. > > 60 Minutes II decided to honor that request, while > pressing for the Defense Department to add its > perspective to the incidents at Abu Ghraib prison. > This week, with the photos beginning to circulate > elsewhere, and with other journalists about to publish > their versions of the story, the Defense Department > agreed to cooperate in our report. > > > > > > > > __________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Win a $20,000 Career Makeover at Yahoo! HotJobs > http://hotjobs.sweepstakes.yahoo.com/careermakeover
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