Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 15:21:45 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Harry M. Cleaver" <hmcleave-AT-eco.utexas.edu>
Subject: Re: AUT: re: grundrisse etc discussion


On Fri, 18 Sep 1998, rc&am wrote:

> Harry M. Cleaver wrote:
> > 
> > On Wed, 16 Sep 1998, Geoffrey J McDonald wrote:
> > 
> > > Professor Cleaver wrote:
> > >
> > > > Rakesh: Yes, very objectivistically, indeed. I wonder why you bother with
> > > > this list which has so few objectivists, if any, besides yourself?
> > >
> > > Some people are interested in exchanging ideas and learning from people who
> > > don't see things exactly the same way they do. Talk about "solipsism".
> > >
> > > Geoff
> > >
> > Geoff: First, do you see me using the title "professor" anywhere? Please
> > don't. 
> 
> harry: i would agree that this kind of anti-academicism is unwarranted,
> but it has occured before.
> 
> but: the intro to the autopsy list states:
> 
> "The purpose of AUT-OP-SY is to provide a forum in which to explore the
> changing nature of class composition and class struggle within the
> planetary work machine. To this end we encourage a range of
> contributions, from news and views to 'works in progress' and instances
> of co-research (interviews, questionnaires, etc.)."

Angela: This is what I was refering to.
> 
> i thought that both myself and the others that you named are concerned
> to discuss and debate precisely around these questions.  if there are
> other conditions to being on the list, namely an adherence to a
> particular understanding of the processes of class composition, then it
> should be made clear. as it is, i thought this is what the deabte was.  

Angela:  No, Angela, neither I nor anyone else I have read on this list
have demanded any such.  I think there have been
several debates and several kinds of intervention. Rakesh's piqued my
curiosity because his interventions re:objectivism seemed so far outside
the range of most of what I have seen here. 

> do you really accuse the people you named of 'evangelising' or
> 'sharpening their wit'?  i would hope not.  

Angela: no Angela 1) I did not accuse anyone of having any particular
motivation and if you don't have those, why imagine that I did? 2) What I
have done was to think outloud about various apparent motivations I have
seen, or have thought I have seen, in various interventions on various
lists. Including this one. There have been people who have come, blasted
virtually every aspect of the ideas of the founders of this list,
sometimes in rather ugly ways, and then departed, leaving a bad taste in
the mouth.  I had absolutely no problem with my discussion with Haines,
nor, I believe, did he. Similarly, I have no problem with my current
discussion with Rakesh who is quite polite and well spoken. (I've just
been curious over keeps him here.) And the only problem I have with you is
how quickly you "lose your temper". I have NO problem debating the issues
in question, none at all.

> things are getting heated
> (and yes, i lost my temper, but can you truly say that you have not for
> some time now been less than friendly in the way you have read
> criticisms?), but still around the issues re: class composition.
> 
> angela
> 
Angela: I'll tell you something, sarcasm, snide remarks and other 
personal nastiness will generate cold, responses --less than
friendly to be sure. But, on the other hand, just because I disagree
doesn't imply a lack of "friendliness". I obviously enjoy this kind of
exchange --or I wouldn't engage in it. Dissecting arguments, piece by
piece, is not a hostile act, just a careful one. This media lends itself
to such care and I enjoy taking it, when I have time.   

So, don't take offense and let's get on with it. OK?

Harry
............................................................................
Harry Cleaver
Department of Economics
University of Texas at Austin
Austin, Texas 78712-1173  USA
Phone Numbers: (hm)  (512) 478-8427
               (off) (512) 475-8535   Fax:(512) 471-3510
E-mail: hmcleave-AT-eco.utexas.edu
Cleaver homepage: 
http://www.eco.utexas.edu/faculty/Cleaver/index.html
Chiapas95 homepage:
http://www.eco.utexas.edu/faculty/Cleaver/chiapas95.html
Accion Zapatista homepage:
http://www.utexas.edu/students/nave/
............................................................................




     --- from list aut-op-sy-AT-lists.village.virginia.edu ---