File spoon-archives/aut-op-sy.archive/aut-op-sy_2001/aut-op-sy.0106, message 119


From: "Ahmed" <ahmedv-AT-mail.saimr.wits.ac.za>
Subject: AUT: Re: Re: Re: wheee... nationalism 
Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 11:21:42 +0200


Dear all

i need to read the 80 odd messages in my inbox, but did catch the tail of a
discussion.
cwrite wrote:
Maybe nationalism is not able to even put on a progressive mask
> anymore to hide its reactionary politics

o how we wish this was true. In South Africa the communist party, and the
largest trade union federation COSATU, justifies its continued alliance with
the ANC in terms of a national democratic revolution which becomes
increasingly indistinguishable from everyday bourgeois nationalism.

What is most worrying is - that the discourse of the national democratic
revolution, which is heavily dependant on a crude idea of 'stages' that need
to be completed in order to arrive at communism - is precisely how what some
list members seem to be arguing in relation to the 'Third World' ( and its
lack indusratialisation to support a socialist state)

Now this kind of stagist approach depends on seeing revolution in very
narrow terms in which nations (imagined by bourgeois maps) proceed
individually to socialism. sounds a bit fishy.

I return to my inbox. if out of context please ignore


_________________________________
Ahmed Veriava
Centre for Health Policy

I write what I like
----- Original Message -----
From: "cwright" <cwright-AT-21stcentury.net>
To: <aut-op-sy-AT-lists.village.virginia.edu>
Sent: Monday, June 11, 2001 9:42 AM
Subject: AUT: Re: Re: wheee... nationalism


> BTW, all this may be a moot point.  As Sean pointed out, with the collapse
> of the Soviet union, the space for nationalist revolutions may no longer
> exist.  Then again, it may be less the collapse of the USSR and the degree
> to which capital has transformed social relations all over the world.  It
> does not seem to me that much space still exists for that type of
revolution
> (no colonialism anymore, or not much; much greater integration into the
> world market, no longer are so many countries just raw material
reservoirs,
> etc.)  Maybe nationalism is not able to even put on a progressive mask
> anymore to hide its reactionary politics.
>
> Maybe.
>
> Cheers,
> Chris
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Sean Fenley" <satellitecrash-AT-yahoo.com>
> To: <aut-op-sy-AT-lists.village.virginia.edu>
> Sent: Sunday, June 10, 2001 8:59 AM
> Subject: AUT: Re: wheee... nationalism
>
>
> > --- Thomas Seay <entheogens-AT-yahoo.com> wrote:
> > > Commie00,  I dont know what position to take vis a'
> > > vis
> > > Nationalist struggles that are led by the national
> > > ruling class, or at least in which there is a
> > > national
> > > front of classes.  However, it seems that the theory
> > > of "thirdworldism", such as that put forth at one
> > > time
> > > by the Communist Party of China, deserves serious
> > > thought.
> >
> > Hey all,
> > I think the apologetics for nationalism and even
> > attempts to make nationalist struggles seem logical
> > obscure what is the real situation...
> >
> > all nationalist struggles are led by a ruling class
> > insofar as they are nationalist struggles. communists,
> > of course, are not interested in nations, but a world
> > of freely associated autonomous communities.
> > identifying with a nation seems to me to be a
> > reactionary stance that goes along with being an
> > apologist for empire building, representative
> > democracy, standing militaries (police forces too),
> > not to mention racism, sexism, and the various
> > cultural oppressions which states have made into a
> > science. as a disclaimer to the last part of that i
> > should say that it does seem like at least the
> > advanced capitalist states are trying to eliminate or
> > at least mitigate racism, sexism, hetrosexism (more
> > rhetorical than serious about this one) and religious
> > discrimination (insofar as workers identifications
> > with these cultural concepts don't get in the way of
> > their ability to work and take part in beyond what is
> > deemed "normal") at least among disempowered groups
> > when it is  in the ruling classes's interests. Racism
> > and discrimination is ok when a particular race is
> > rioting or "scamming" the welfare system but not in
> > the workplace where it may interfere with
> > productivity, etc... This might not be completely
> > clear i can spell it our further if I have to but am
> > just typing this to save space...
> >
> > it's just completely obvious to me that some third
> > world liberation struggles will pose a nationalist
> > character (and is why i support nationalist third
> > world struggles b/c these struggles are resisting an
> > even more oppressive bourgeosie than their own),
> > virtually every society on the planet has a
> > nation-state hovering over it and attempting to
> > control it, it's almost an "if you can't beat em join
> > em" type of logic for liberation movements to take a
> > nationalist character... this is one of the greatest
> > difficulties of the class struggle, breaking through
> > the state and realizing the kind of society the
> > various cultural revolutions that have been taking
> > place since 68' have been striving for, and a society
> > with workers self-management. but breaking through the
> > state has of course been so difficult because of
> > arguments against class struggle in favor of
> > nationalism, social democracy, trade union membership,
> > etc...
> >
> >  but as i said it doesn't really make sense to
> > rationalize nationalism. even though i can understand
> > a movement being nationalist that's not important
> > because it doesn't do anything to change what nations
> > and the concept of nationalism are about... for me
> > this whole debate asks the question of can third world
> > peoples realize communism? what i mean is can a third
> > world struggle get outside of capitalism and realize a
> > free society? i think that such a movement could occur
> > but would have to give up a lot of material goods that
> > peoples of advanced capitalist countries have made an
> > everday part of their lives. although i wouldn't argue
> > Cuba is communist I think it poses an example of the
> > kind of task that would have to take place to build
> > (what have previously been) a third world nation
> > outside of the global capitalist order. i'm actually a
> > bit of a luddite but certainly not completely and i
> > think in communist society everyone lives well and
> > many menial tasks would be automated. but even though
> > i'm for a much lower tech society i'm not sure a
> > communist revolution can take place in anything but an
> > advanced capitalist country... actually i shouldn't
> > say that because a very agrarian society could become
> > communist without to much trouble.. i mean there are
> > many cultures which are de facto autonomous throughout
> > the globe (from the states they are supposedly part of
> > or even the global economy), but the communist project
> > seems to me to be more about global or at least
> > large-scale revolution so that all cultures can share
> > in relatively equal technolgical advancement and
> > standard of living.
> > in struggle,
> > -Sean
> >
> >
> >
> > __________________________________________________
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> >
> >
> >      --- from list aut-op-sy-AT-lists.village.virginia.edu ---
> >
>
>
>
>      --- from list aut-op-sy-AT-lists.village.virginia.edu ---



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