From: "Ahmed" <ahmedv-AT-mail.saimr.wits.ac.za> Subject: AUT: Re: Re: Re: wheee... nationalism Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 11:21:42 +0200 Dear all i need to read the 80 odd messages in my inbox, but did catch the tail of a discussion. cwrite wrote: Maybe nationalism is not able to even put on a progressive mask > anymore to hide its reactionary politics o how we wish this was true. In South Africa the communist party, and the largest trade union federation COSATU, justifies its continued alliance with the ANC in terms of a national democratic revolution which becomes increasingly indistinguishable from everyday bourgeois nationalism. What is most worrying is - that the discourse of the national democratic revolution, which is heavily dependant on a crude idea of 'stages' that need to be completed in order to arrive at communism - is precisely how what some list members seem to be arguing in relation to the 'Third World' ( and its lack indusratialisation to support a socialist state) Now this kind of stagist approach depends on seeing revolution in very narrow terms in which nations (imagined by bourgeois maps) proceed individually to socialism. sounds a bit fishy. I return to my inbox. if out of context please ignore _________________________________ Ahmed Veriava Centre for Health Policy I write what I like ----- Original Message ----- From: "cwright" <cwright-AT-21stcentury.net> To: <aut-op-sy-AT-lists.village.virginia.edu> Sent: Monday, June 11, 2001 9:42 AM Subject: AUT: Re: Re: wheee... nationalism > BTW, all this may be a moot point. As Sean pointed out, with the collapse > of the Soviet union, the space for nationalist revolutions may no longer > exist. Then again, it may be less the collapse of the USSR and the degree > to which capital has transformed social relations all over the world. It > does not seem to me that much space still exists for that type of revolution > (no colonialism anymore, or not much; much greater integration into the > world market, no longer are so many countries just raw material reservoirs, > etc.) Maybe nationalism is not able to even put on a progressive mask > anymore to hide its reactionary politics. > > Maybe. > > Cheers, > Chris > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Sean Fenley" <satellitecrash-AT-yahoo.com> > To: <aut-op-sy-AT-lists.village.virginia.edu> > Sent: Sunday, June 10, 2001 8:59 AM > Subject: AUT: Re: wheee... nationalism > > > > --- Thomas Seay <entheogens-AT-yahoo.com> wrote: > > > Commie00, I dont know what position to take vis a' > > > vis > > > Nationalist struggles that are led by the national > > > ruling class, or at least in which there is a > > > national > > > front of classes. However, it seems that the theory > > > of "thirdworldism", such as that put forth at one > > > time > > > by the Communist Party of China, deserves serious > > > thought. > > > > Hey all, > > I think the apologetics for nationalism and even > > attempts to make nationalist struggles seem logical > > obscure what is the real situation... > > > > all nationalist struggles are led by a ruling class > > insofar as they are nationalist struggles. communists, > > of course, are not interested in nations, but a world > > of freely associated autonomous communities. > > identifying with a nation seems to me to be a > > reactionary stance that goes along with being an > > apologist for empire building, representative > > democracy, standing militaries (police forces too), > > not to mention racism, sexism, and the various > > cultural oppressions which states have made into a > > science. as a disclaimer to the last part of that i > > should say that it does seem like at least the > > advanced capitalist states are trying to eliminate or > > at least mitigate racism, sexism, hetrosexism (more > > rhetorical than serious about this one) and religious > > discrimination (insofar as workers identifications > > with these cultural concepts don't get in the way of > > their ability to work and take part in beyond what is > > deemed "normal") at least among disempowered groups > > when it is in the ruling classes's interests. Racism > > and discrimination is ok when a particular race is > > rioting or "scamming" the welfare system but not in > > the workplace where it may interfere with > > productivity, etc... This might not be completely > > clear i can spell it our further if I have to but am > > just typing this to save space... > > > > it's just completely obvious to me that some third > > world liberation struggles will pose a nationalist > > character (and is why i support nationalist third > > world struggles b/c these struggles are resisting an > > even more oppressive bourgeosie than their own), > > virtually every society on the planet has a > > nation-state hovering over it and attempting to > > control it, it's almost an "if you can't beat em join > > em" type of logic for liberation movements to take a > > nationalist character... this is one of the greatest > > difficulties of the class struggle, breaking through > > the state and realizing the kind of society the > > various cultural revolutions that have been taking > > place since 68' have been striving for, and a society > > with workers self-management. but breaking through the > > state has of course been so difficult because of > > arguments against class struggle in favor of > > nationalism, social democracy, trade union membership, > > etc... > > > > but as i said it doesn't really make sense to > > rationalize nationalism. even though i can understand > > a movement being nationalist that's not important > > because it doesn't do anything to change what nations > > and the concept of nationalism are about... for me > > this whole debate asks the question of can third world > > peoples realize communism? what i mean is can a third > > world struggle get outside of capitalism and realize a > > free society? i think that such a movement could occur > > but would have to give up a lot of material goods that > > peoples of advanced capitalist countries have made an > > everday part of their lives. although i wouldn't argue > > Cuba is communist I think it poses an example of the > > kind of task that would have to take place to build > > (what have previously been) a third world nation > > outside of the global capitalist order. i'm actually a > > bit of a luddite but certainly not completely and i > > think in communist society everyone lives well and > > many menial tasks would be automated. but even though > > i'm for a much lower tech society i'm not sure a > > communist revolution can take place in anything but an > > advanced capitalist country... actually i shouldn't > > say that because a very agrarian society could become > > communist without to much trouble.. i mean there are > > many cultures which are de facto autonomous throughout > > the globe (from the states they are supposedly part of > > or even the global economy), but the communist project > > seems to me to be more about global or at least > > large-scale revolution so that all cultures can share > > in relatively equal technolgical advancement and > > standard of living. > > in struggle, > > -Sean > > > > > > > > __________________________________________________ > > Do You Yahoo!? > > Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 > > a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ > > > > > > --- from list aut-op-sy-AT-lists.village.virginia.edu --- > > > > > > --- from list aut-op-sy-AT-lists.village.virginia.edu --- --- from list aut-op-sy-AT-lists.village.virginia.edu ---
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