Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 10:29:36 -0700 (PDT)
From: Thomas Seay <entheogens-AT-yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: AUT: Re: Re: Re: wheee... nationalism 


<<Just a question so i know when to make the call

what are the basic preconditions for socialism?>

Ahmed, as I tried to say before, I dont think stagism
should be implemented mechanically, therefore I have
no "recipe" answer to your question.  However, it does
appear to me that there should be a significant
proleteriat and that a socialist revolution have a
sizable support by some of the other classes (ie
peasantry, lower middle class, etc).

-Thomas
--- Ahmed <ahmedv-AT-mail.saimr.wits.ac.za> wrote:
>  Dear Thomas
> 
> 
> Just a few thoughts:
> 
> > I dont think that revolutions need to necessarily
> go
> > through "stages".  It depends on the conditions of
> a
> > particular country.  I do contend that it seems
> rather
> > a difficult task to call for a "socialist
> revolution"
> > in a country where near feudal property relations
> > dominate.
> >
> Firstly i think you make the mistake of posing the
> question of revolution in
> terms of a call from a working class of a particular
> nation. that is
> nationalism seems to structure the collective will
> of the class
> 
> more. certainly in many 'countries' traces of non
> tradition capitalist
> property relations are found. however they are not
> precapitalist as such, or
> as i believe you would suggest  feudal. post
> colonialism these forms of
> organisation were intergrated into capitalist
> circuits of exchange and
> distribution and must be understood in relation to
> that (latter) mode of
> production
> 
> Finally conditions may be different within a
> particular continent, region,
> country, town or section of that town. So for me in
> johannesburb, is a call
> for socialism more ligitimate and plausible than my
> brother in rural kwazulu
> natal? should he wait until 'propercapitalism'
> happens?
> 
> > We used to joke about trotskyists saying they
> > supported revolution until it actually happened. 
> On
> > the one hand I agree with you that "stagism" is
> > incorrect if it is just a mechanical procedure. 
> On
> > the other hand, in some cases it is going to be
> > impossible to call for a socialist revolution (in
> lieu
> > of a nationalist revolution)...maybe not
> impossible to
> > call for it but when you have a small proleteriat,
> it
> > would just be crushed immediately.
> 
> Just a question so i know when to make the call
> 
> what are the basic preconditions for socialism?
> 
> ahmed
> 
> > --- Ahmed <ahmedv-AT-mail.saimr.wits.ac.za> wrote:
> > > Dear all
> > >
> > > i need to read the 80 odd messages in my inbox,
> but
> > > did catch the tail of a
> > > discussion.
> > > cwrite wrote:
> > > Maybe nationalism is not able to even put on a
> > > progressive mask
> > > > anymore to hide its reactionary politics
> > >
> > > o how we wish this was true. In South Africa the
> > > communist party, and the
> > > largest trade union federation COSATU, justifies
> its
> > > continued alliance with
> > > the ANC in terms of a national democratic
> revolution
> > > which becomes
> > > increasingly indistinguishable from everyday
> > > bourgeois nationalism.
> > >
> > > What is most worrying is - that the discourse of
> the
> > > national democratic
> > > revolution, which is heavily dependant on a
> crude
> > > idea of 'stages' that need
> > > to be completed in order to arrive at communism
> - is
> > > precisely how what some
> > > list members seem to be arguing in relation to
> the
> > > 'Third World' ( and its
> > > lack indusratialisation to support a socialist
> > > state)
> > >
> > > Now this kind of stagist approach depends on
> seeing
> > > revolution in very
> > > narrow terms in which nations (imagined by
> bourgeois
> > > maps) proceed
> > > individually to socialism. sounds a bit fishy.
> > >
> > > I return to my inbox. if out of context please
> > > ignore
> > >
> > >
> > > _________________________________
> > > Ahmed Veriava
> > > Centre for Health Policy
> > >
> > > I write what I like
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "cwright" <cwright-AT-21stcentury.net>
> > > To: <aut-op-sy-AT-lists.village.virginia.edu>
> > > Sent: Monday, June 11, 2001 9:42 AM
> > > Subject: AUT: Re: Re: wheee... nationalism
> > >
> > >
> > > > BTW, all this may be a moot point.  As Sean
> > > pointed out, with the collapse
> > > > of the Soviet union, the space for nationalist
> > > revolutions may no longer
> > > > exist.  Then again, it may be less the
> collapse of
> > > the USSR and the degree
> > > > to which capital has transformed social
> relations
> > > all over the world.  It
> > > > does not seem to me that much space still
> exists
> > > for that type of
> > > revolution
> > > > (no colonialism anymore, or not much; much
> greater
> > > integration into the
> > > > world market, no longer are so many countries
> just
> > > raw material
> > > reservoirs,
> > > > etc.)  Maybe nationalism is not able to even
> put
> > > on a progressive mask
> > > > anymore to hide its reactionary politics.
> > > >
> > > > Maybe.
> > > >
> > > > Cheers,
> > > > Chris
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > From: "Sean Fenley" <satellitecrash-AT-yahoo.com>
> > > > To: <aut-op-sy-AT-lists.village.virginia.edu>
> > > > Sent: Sunday, June 10, 2001 8:59 AM
> > > > Subject: AUT: Re: wheee... nationalism
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > --- Thomas Seay <entheogens-AT-yahoo.com>
> wrote:
> > > > > > Commie00,  I dont know what position to
> take
> > > vis a'
> > > > > > vis
> > > > > > Nationalist struggles that are led by the
> > > national
> > > > > > ruling class, or at least in which there
> is a
> > > > > > national
> > > > > > front of classes.  However, it seems that
> the
> > > theory
> > > > > > of "thirdworldism", such as that put forth
> at
> > > one
> > > > > > time
> > > > > > by the Communist Party of China, deserves
> > > serious
> > > > > > thought.
> > > > >
> > > > > Hey all,
> > > > > I think the apologetics for nationalism and
> even
> > > > > attempts to make nationalist struggles seem
> > > logical
> > > > > obscure what is the real situation...
> > > > >
> > > > > all nationalist struggles are led by a
> ruling
> > > class
> > > > > insofar as they are nationalist struggles.
> > > communists,
> > > > > of course, are not interested in nations,
> but a
> > > world
> 
=== message truncated ==

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