Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2001 16:34:07 +0100
From: Andrew Flood <andrewflood-AT-eircom.net>
Subject: Re: AUT: Re: Re: marxism vs. leninism


>however, i was not trying to attack bakunin. but deal with him historically.

If you want to be historical you might provide some actual evidence
rather then vague and unreferenced claims of what you think
Bakunin said.  You might consider the quote I gave 'proves
nothing' but as yet you have not provided any evidence,
just opinion.


>> "Thus the sole aim of a secret society must be, not the creation
>> of an artificial power outside the people, but the rousing, uniting and
>> organising of the spontaneous power of the people; therefore, the only
>> possible, the only real revolutionary army is not outside the
>> people, it is the people itself."

>this proves nothing. it doesn't even deal with the idea of secret
>leadership, but just sets forth the aims of the secret leadership.

I'm sorry but saying "the sole aim of a secret society must be,
not the creation of an artificial power outside the people"
is ruling out your conspiracy theory of an authoratarian
hierachy.

>lenin
>said the same thing numerous times, and then went about saying how a
>leadership was necessary to make this happen. this is an argument which
>bakunin openly supported in his debates with marx.

Let's see some quotes from him then.


>this is not what he said. i don't have quotes easily accessible to me, but
>he refered to the "secret hand" and "invisible leadership" and other such
>crap a number of times.

You really are going to have to produce the actual quotes, both of
these phrases could refer to the influence of the ideas of a
single group, which is what Bakunin advocated, rather then
a secret group seizing positions of power which is what
you claim.

>>  He explicitly ruled out
>> the taking of position in order to dictate policy to larger
>> forces.
>
>and then he tried to take possestion of the first international to do just
>this (because he explicitly ruled in such action in other places).
>whereupon, marx tried to do the same thing more successfully.

Again lets see your evidence for this.  To date all you are doing is
re-cycling some rather old prejudices

Andrew

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