File spoon-archives/aut-op-sy.archive/aut-op-sy_2001/aut-op-sy.0106, message 406


From: "dannylambert" <danlambert-AT-sniffout.com>
Subject: Re: AUT: capitalist as risk-taker and supervisor
Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 23:38:53 -0000



----- Original Message -----
From: Sharon Vance <canito3-AT-earthlink.net>
To: <aut-op-sy-AT-lists.village.virginia.edu>
Sent: Sunday, June 24, 2001 3:11 AM
Subject: Re: AUT: capitalist as risk-taker and supervisor

Hi Sharon, n' everyone
I've been looking into this list for about a month and enjoying it.
I'm a member of the spgb, world socialist movement, and we define class like
this, if you live on rent, interest, profitor a combination of the three
you're ruling/owning/capitalist class. If, on the other hand you have to
sell
your life for a wage, salary or fee (employment) you're working class.
The small shopkeeper works for the wholesaler, the news vendor works for
newspaper,
Danny


> This thread is really interesting.
> Theoretically, what commie00 is saying sounds consistent to me, but when
you
> put it into practice politically, empirically and apply it to real world
> situations you come up with the absurdities that Tahir is talking about.
> This is the problem I am having with Marxist definitions of class (at
least
> of the type that commie00 is giving and that I also learned in Sociology
and
> Marxist theory classes) and trying to apply them to Morocco. A petty
peddler
> who lives in some hut in the countryside south of Mogador and barely has
> enough to feed is his family, if he had someone who worked for him (either
> for money or for barter or in a client/patron relation) also might fall
into
> such a definition. Or maybe capitalist relations of production and class
> definitions would not completely apply in such a situation.
>
> But even in a purely capitalist economy, the example that Tahir mentions:
>
> What practical use is it to characterise someone who owns a little
> > corner shop and makes enough just to scrape by as belonging to the same
class
> > as a director of a multinational company? And why stop there - why not
say
> > that the vendors that you find along the street in any African city are
also
> > ruling class if they happen to employ an assistant?
> >
>
> is also an excellent example of where theoretical consistency needs to
give
> into reality. And what about newsvendors, who were never recognized as
> employees, but were legally classified as "independent sub-constractors"?
> What does distinguish between a sales clerk who is acknowledged as an
> employee and one who is contracted out and forced to into ludicrous legal
> and economic arrangements whereby they must 'buy' the product at a fixed
> price and sell it at a fixed price, under fixed conditions. And often
times
> it is these 'contractors' who are the most exploited of all.
> Sharon
> > From: Tahir Wood <twood-AT-uwc.ac.za>
> > Reply-To: aut-op-sy-AT-lists.village.virginia.edu
> > Date: 22 Jun 2001 11:03:42 +0200
> > To: aut-op-sy-AT-lists.village.virginia.edu
> > Subject: Re: AUT: capitalist as risk-taker and supervisor
> >
> >
> >
> >>>> commie00-AT-yahoo.com 06/21/01 07:12PM >>>
> > there are small
> > business owners who make way less than some factory workers, but they
are
> > ruling class and the factory workers are obviously not.
> >
> > I think that when class analysis reaches conclusions like this - and
blandly
> > stated as if it were simply a matter of fact - then something is clearly
> > wrong. What practical use is it to characterise someone who owns a
little
> > corner shop and makes enough just to scrape by as belonging to the same
class
> > as a director of a multinational company? And why stop there - why not
say
> > that the vendors that you find along the street in any African city are
also
> > ruling class if they happen to employ an assistant?
> >
> > This seems to me to be the kind of thing that gives theory a bad name.
> >
> > Tahir
> >
> >
> >
> > --- from list aut-op-sy-AT-lists.village.virginia.edu ---
>
>
>
>      --- from list aut-op-sy-AT-lists.village.virginia.edu ---




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