File spoon-archives/aut-op-sy.archive/aut-op-sy_2001/aut-op-sy.0107, message 11


Date: Sun, 01 Jul 2001 07:54:36 -0700
Subject: Re: AUT: RE: RE: Dante's Empire
From: Sharon Vance <canito3-AT-earthlink.net>


Maybe I suffering from an allusion of over-importance, living in the US, but
I have read many third world revolutionaries, and even liberals and
progressives say that what we do in the US is crucial.
Of course most people in the US live in a bubble. And even people who are so
close to the border and still have relatives on the other side can get
caught up in that same bubble. In some ways they have to in order to
survive. But I think that as more workers in the US find themselves in this
wretched race to the bottom and as more and more realize that they are no
longer profiting from US imperialism, that they in fact are suffering
economically because it it, more and more of them will see their interests
coincide with workers in the rest of the world.
This may not be enough. Up until WWII most people in the US did not benefit
directly from US Imperialism. And the benefits from slavery were mostly
symbolic for poor people in the US. The Indian land grab was definitely a
direct benefit, but the best land went to the robber barons, and thousands
lost that land in the 30s. And yet people in the US even though they didn't
benefit directly, did not oppose imperialism and many supported it.
But today, we are living in an age of mass culture and communication. What
role do we play in propping Empire up? What would happen if we refused to
play that role?
Sharon

> From: Birgit Bock <birgit.bock-AT-student.uni-tuebingen.de>
> Reply-To: aut-op-sy-AT-lists.village.virginia.edu
> Date: Sat, 30 Jun 2001 02:04:29 +0200 (CEST)
> To: "'aut-op-sy-AT-lists.village.virginia.edu'"
> <aut-op-sy-AT-lists.village.virginia.edu>
> Subject: Re: AUT: RE: RE: Dante's Empire
> 
> I think such concerns are very real today even though we
> think ourselves almost free of fortunes grasp, in the sense that nothing
> will or can disrupt the status quo of capitalism in the west.
> 
> Or could the newest form of Empire the new world order, truly be the an
> Empire that will last 10,000 years. It seems that science fiction and
> night-mare dis utopias could very well hit the mark. This is a disturbing
> thought only because the empire of today is so violent and seems to demand
> half the world population in the third world as its victims. So it seems
> that communists in our attempt to be anti-empire, we can't help but push
> society toward civil war. But then is there anything worse than civil war?
> Historical speaking most revolutionary civil wars have lead to enough
> suffering on their own regardless of the goals. Maybe Nicaragua and the
> sandinista's would be an example of a successful civil war, or Cuba, but
> where are the people now? Is the neo-liberal government in Nicaragua, the
> end process of all those hero and brave souls to gave their lives in the
> fight against dictatorship and US exploitation. We could ask the same of
> the Russia revolution and the Spanish civil war.
> 
> I mean my whole take on the thing is this, Empire is out of the hands of
> the individual, I mean that the abuse of authority and general
> exploitation will most likely worsen. I am mean the social decay around us
> could lead us into our own demise. A new communist has to be in some ways
> the one who like Dido sees events and societal  developments which are
> leading society and culture to its ruin. Or at least recount these events,
> after they have happened. Could there be another order to things different
> for the Western exploitation of the third world? What would that be and
> how could we get, there.



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