From: "cwright" <cwright-AT-21stcentury.net>
Subject: Re: AUT: Re: Marxist-Leninist Autonomists?
Date: Sat, 4 Aug 2001 18:05:53 -0500


Hmm...

Well, I don't know if anyone can say how 'most' anarchists or autonomist
Marxists view this.  Some fall into what both of you describe.  Some, like
many contributors on this list, feel that the political divide between
anarchism and marxism has considerably weakened.  The problems would have to
be taken on a point by point basis.  I do not think that libertarian Marxism
would want or need to reproduce the Second International's expulsion of
anarchism.  At the same time, genuine theoretical and hence political
differences do exist between most strands of anarchism and even liberatarian
Marxism.  It might be more interesting to take those up concretely rather
than in this broad way.

Marx, for his part, had a mixed attitude towards the anarchists of his day.
For all of his theoretical hostility towards Proudhon, Marx repeatedly
honored Proudhon as a revolutionary (see his obituary after Proudhon's death
as well as some comments in the 1880's).  Marx took a different attitude
towards Bakunin in different periods and one would be hard-pressed to find
the total animosity in the Conspectus on Bakunin that pervaded the fights in
the International Workingmen's Association.  Regarding De Paepe, Marx had a
cordial, if limited, relationship throughout the history if the
International.

As for anarcho-Maoism, I think this is more of a practical problem and a
convergence based on a kind of lack of politics for many self-styled
anarchists.  In Chicago, some elements of the anarchist crowd who basically
ascribe to 'heroic' individual or small group action to 'inspire the masses
to militancy' find themselves repeatedly in the same camp as RCP Maoists who
spout the 'It's right to rebel' line and who also act in a contemptuous
manner towards any kind of mass political work.  A kind of vulgar
ultra-leftism (really, IMO, a kind of bourgeois individualism) is the common
thread.  The anarchists in this milieu distrust the organizational and
olitical practice of the Maoists, but find themselves in a practical bloc
with them at actions because they have the same lack of political
perspective beyond 'direct confrontation'.  The low political level makes
any political engagement difficult because both play to a very high level of
anti-intellectualism.

This is not the entire anarchist milieu by any stretch.  One thing which
Seattle has changed in the US is that anarchism of a number of sorts, some
harkening back to the better and more sophisticated, more class-oriented,
anarchism of the pre-1939 period have re-emerged.  This is a positive thing
in the US and should not be overlooked.  I work with a number of very
intelligent and capable anarchists who are as hostile, if not more so, than
I am towards the anarcho-Maoists, who they see as individualists and
lifestylists.

Well, I have to go.  Babysitter is here.  More later.

Cheers,
Chris
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jamal Hannah" <jah-AT-iww.org>
To: <aut-op-sy-AT-lists.village.virginia.edu>
Sent: Friday, August 03, 2001 3:17 PM
Subject: Re: AUT: Re: Marxist-Leninist Autonomists?


> On Thu, 2 Aug 2001, commie00 wrote:
>
> > i think it is based in two things:
> >
> > 1) is the fact that many autonomists and libertarian marxists, in spite
of
> > their antiauthoritarianism, etc., still cling to some aspects of
leninism or
> > at least claim lenin to be a great revolutionary. negri and guerin are
both
> > in this camp. like many anarchists actually (particularly the
> > anarcho-maoists in the u.s.), negri has never quite rid himself of his
> > vanguardism, and guerin maintained his admiration of lenin and trotsky
as
> > "great revolutionaries", even in his anthology of anarchist thought.
>
> "Like many anarchists"?  But Guerin was a libertarian marxist, and Negri
> wasnt an anarchist at all... it seems you cant accept some critical
> debate about authoritarian autonomists without attacking anarchists,
> commie00... you really need to work on this.  As far as
> "anarcho-maoists" in the US.. I have never heard of any, since you cannot
> justify Maoism while being an anarchist.  There are people like
> Christopher Day from the former Love and Rage Revolutionary Anarchist
> Federation, but he never really accepted anarchism and had ideas about
> authoritarian organizing forms and an over-emphasis on the importance of
> 3rd-world style vangaurds.
>
> > and 2) many anarchist ideologues have a great deal of jealousy when it
comes
> > to antistate, etc. theories which come from outside of anarchISM,
> > particularly those which derive from marx. and they equate marx with
> > leninism (a huge problem since leninism comes from lessalle's statism
and
> > engels-inspired interpretations of marx as a political economist and
> > 'scientific socialist' -- all of which marx rejected while alive), and
thus
> > reactionarily interpret anything which relates to marx as leninist.
>
> I would say you have it reversed.  Many autonomist ideologues have a great
> deal of jealousy when it comes to antistate, etc. theories which come from
> outside marxISM, because they want to believe that only marx is the true
> revolutionary, and they cant accept alternative ideas.  When anarchists
> criticize "marxism" they are talking about authoritarian marxism anyway,
> but autonomists like yourself jump the gun and assume they are talking
> about other types of marxists.. this is not true, and you need to really
> chill out and not jump the gun.
>
> commie00, you seem obcessed with this idea of labeling anarchists
> authoritarians, while maintaining that marx was the
> "true" antiauthoritarian. This is simply ideological "team-cheerleading",
> and not really productive.
>
> Anyway, we're talking about Marxist-Leninist autonomists here, not
> anarchists.  The question is, why would autonomists be Leninists, if
> leninism involves authoritarian parties and vangaurds?  Are these people
> just infiltrating an antiauthoritarian movement for their own ends?
>
>  - JH
>
>
>
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