File spoon-archives/aut-op-sy.archive/aut-op-sy_2001/aut-op-sy.0112, message 164


Date: 19 Dec 2001 10:17:14 +0200
From: "Tahir Wood" <twood-AT-uwc.ac.za>
Subject: RE: AUT: N. Korea Rejects Nuke Inspection


Could I enquire as to what is going on in this post? Who is debating with whom here and what was the intention in posting it? 
Tahir

>>> debsian-AT-pacbell.net 12/16/01 10:24PM >>>

On Mark's advice, I'll post this. It's a thread >from within
a few folks being provoked by Michael Pugliese.
 
Macdonald
*******
 
 
>          Ah yes, the great legacy of the Serbian Socialist
Party. This
Great
> Shining Revolutionary Beacon of the Working Class undertook
capitalist
> counter-revolution. That is its sole "achievement". It privatised
half the
> economy, scrapped workers' management, and undertook a systematic
attack
on
> democratic rights won by the revolution, including banning
abortion. Even
> "nationalised" industries in Serbia is a bit of a joke since
Milosevic and
> ex-Titoist bureaucrats he demolished via bribery in fact profit
and thieve
> from them. I would point out the fact it also funded reactionary
and, for
> all intensive purposes, petty-bourgeois fascist militia that
went on a
> rampage through Yugoslavia, but since the imperialists use
that as a
pretext
> for their attacks I'll be accused of a running dog of imperialism...

If you mean the paramilitaries, I suggest you get real to the
realities of
war. In every effect, the IRA is a "paramilitary". The State
of Yugoslavia
is surrounded by hostile states that are all backed by the most
vicious of
"fascists" and the NATO powers, particularly Germany and, of
course the US.
If you want to only have "honorable" troops in such a position,
you will
quickly be destroyed, no matter what class state you are running.


>
>  These bureaucrats undertook capitalist counter-revolution
as much as the
> other regimes in Eastern Europe, not least Russia. Milosevic
is
historically
> for Serbia what Yeltsin was for Russia.

Utterly false. Given the tide of electoral "openings" in Europe,
the
Yugoslav communists/socialists had a choice: They could go the
way of
bourgeois "elections", or risk losing the popularity that the
Yugo regime
had EARNED for the prior 40 years, through both economics and
a very mild
state. Yugoslavia did not exist in a vacuum. I don't get something,
why is
only Cuba allowed to make obviously neccessary concessions to
capitalism in
time of crisis and isolation? Is it that fiery speech and the
revolutionary
beard? Vietnam, Cuba and Yugoslavia, in similar circumstances
but with very
different surroundings, neighbours and traditions have all adapted
to the
"new world order" in different ways, none of them perfectly.
In fact,
sacialistic Libya has undergone a similar transition, by allowing
by far the
most private enterprise since 1969. I guess even Qaddaffi, someone
with an
espoused hatred for athiestic communism has been "discouraged".
It obviously
has nothing to do with bending to avoid a break.

Here's an idea for these cloud-land critics. Come up with a fucking
program
that takes everything into account. You miss one little border
marker with
Bulgaria, and you are dead. This is a new video-game, I call
it "Cyber Yugo
Commie From Hell". Your mission: It is nineteen eighty-nine.
You just saw
all the communist bloc countries either give up power, or get
overthrown.
You have just been cut off from all Western trade. You are watching
all
indicators fall, yet you have decided to try level one by: Re-nationalising
everything! Sorry, comrade, game over, comrade. Total privatisation
and the
IMF runs your bank. No more Dinar, hello Mark! Well, forgive
me, but I
subscribe to dialectical materialism. In reality, yes, much of
the
Yugoslavian regime is corrupt. However, given the situation they
have been
in, I cannot really see much other than what kind of piecemeal
privatisation
they have selected they should have picked. I don't have a picture
of
Milosevic on my wall, if that's what you want from me. However,
I really
don't care about his family (except his wife), whether or not
he beats his
dog, or if he prefers to ride in Limos when he rides back and
forth to the
smoldering wreckage of what was his "mansion". I am concerned
with how he
and his regime have dealt with a situation in Which they had
a basically
socialist state to defend in a situation that became worse than
pre-1917
practically overnight. If Yeltsin was like Milosevic, as you
say, we would
be all better off and the West wouldn't give a shot about Milosevic
yet.
They would still be focused on what would still be called the
"hard-liners"
who were "stonewalling" in Moscow.

Counter-revolutionary sections of
> the Stalinist bureaucracy that decided their dachas and the
finest 1985
> bottles of Ukrainian wine weren't enough...they wanted profit.
So they
> abandoned their cynical allegiance to Marx, Engels and Lenin
and their
hobby
> horse of "socialism" and became the nouveau riche bourgeoisie.
Perhaps I
> should point out that the richest man in Serbia is the Minister
of
> Privatisation... Maja, a Serbian activist I'm sure you all
remember,
> described the regime she has the misfortune to live under as
> 'kleptocracy'....'government of thieves'.
>

Oh, Shit. Comrade, a couple of days ago off line we agreed how
funny it
was that there are still Marxists who talk about big man theories
of
history, like the one about the "great revisionist coup" in 56.
Now, here
you are rolling out the same crap. *It just doesn't work that
way*! There
are probably some time serving bureaucrats in Cuba (although
if any country
could wipe em out...) who want to get rich and privatise, etc...
there is a
reason why they don't and can't. It sure as hell isn't how rich
Cuba is,
either. The state of Yugoslavia should not be judged against
the ideal we
all cherish, of workers councils. These slogans are good as battle
cries,
but absolutely useless as litmus tests. Judge Yugoslavia against,
say,
Romania. Or any other state in East Europe. Just go with the
basic
indicators. That'l tell the tale of the tape. If you still want
to hate
Milosevic, that's your business, but I'll keep watching.


>  There is also the mere fact that the Socialist Party is in
coalition with
> fascists, the Serbian Radical Party led by Sesijl, Serbia's
very own
> Monsieur Le Pen or Mr. Zhironivsky.

Again, If there had been no way to run an electoral system, the
whole system
might have gone down the tubes. What you have is a parliamentary
system.
What is amazing is how well they have been kept at bay.


 I find it very hard to stomach yet
> symptomatic of the state of the left that any party that commits
itself to
a
> political alliance with fascists should find itself being heralded
by
> self-proclaimed Western leftists.

Again *only in current conditions!*. Wave a flag of Lenin and
October at
them all you like, it won't make that possible in little Serbia/Montenegro.

 It obviously has a bit of a thing with
> reactionaries because it had a slight romance with Vuk Draskovic,
who
calls
> for the restoration of the monarchy and as far back as 1990
suggested
> expelling all Albanians from Kosovo.
>

It got him off the streets and left him totally discredited as
an opporunist
and a traitor. Now he can't pay people to show up, and has successfully
fucked up the entire "democratic opposition". BTW, my prediction
is as
follows: a few days ago, Yugoslavia was left off the list of
"human rights
violators". When the CIA/money starts to actually have some success
in
building a fifth column in Yugoslavia and the SPS decides it
has had enough
of that shit and deals with it properly, then they get on the
list.
Personally, I consider ii somewhat a badge of honour.


>  I would also point out the fact the fascist component of the
regime,
> represented by Sesijl's faction, succeeded in its stated aim
of attempting
> the forced expulsion of all Kosovar Albanians from Yugoslav
soil. Oh
sorry,
> Mac, I forgot you have a bit of a liking for the Jared School
of
> Falsification which denies this ever happened, a man with (to
be reserved)
a
> more than dubious link with reality, who I presume has a motto
in Latin
that
> translates as: "If the fact or source don't exist, make it
up!"

What is *your* evidence? Sheer repetition? I personally believe
that shit
happens in War, and that paramilitaries are mainly responsible.
A plan to
drive em all out? Maybe in certain areas, that might make military
sense,
but just straight up racist purging does not. It wouldn't help
matters for
FRY anyways.

>
>  I don't understand why you have such a fetish for Milosevic.
Surely if
that
> sort of filth turns you on, a similar (indeed counterpart)
regime, like
that
> of Tudjman, would have more revolutionary appeal. There is
the mere fact
him
> and his Croatian bureaucrat fellow travellers committed capitalist
> counter-revolution like Good Old Slobo, but Tudjman was a general
under
Tito
> in the Revolution who actually engaged in armed combat with
fascists and
> helped the victory of Titoism in Yugoslavia. His regime might
be
reactionary
> to the core...but at least he has the history, whereas Milosevic
has a
> less-than-dignified past that perhaps does not meet the heroism
of Che
> Guevara - as a banker in Belgrade.
>
Umm... does "Fuck You" about cover it? Read alittle more, this
is arrogant
BS.


>  It is often said that one indicator of the progressive nature
of a regime
> is its treatment of women...that can now be said about homosexuals.
> Milosevic's regime fails on both counts. Miserably.
>
Agreed. But no one is calling this a workers paradise, so keep
your zeal to
a minimium. You're reminding me of the Spartacist League.


>  Just because we support Yugoslavia militarily against imperialist
onslaught
> does not mean we start heralding its regime as the next best
thing since
> sliced bread and Bolshevism. Though Mac's infatuation with
his glorious
> Milosevic regime might have something to do with his also much-loved
North
> Korean Workers' Party and its shows of solidarity with the
SSP (I think
that
> state is a leading contestant for 'Most Miserable Corner Of
The Earth'
award
> and probably comes closer than the USSR under Stalin for the
most realised
> version of Orwell's '1984'). Like: "We welcome the Serbian
Socialist
Party's
> great triumphs over the last ten years. Kim Il Jung, Socialist
God of All
> The World Who Is Personally Leading North Korea's Great Triumphant
March
To
> Communism, To Whom Life Owes Its Very Existence On The Earth,
Whom Makes
The
> Sun Rise And Set And Makes The Birds Sing At First Light, Who
Makes Crops
> Grow And Flourish And Iron Production Increase By 999999% This
Year, said
> Milosevic was a great statesman...."

 http://www.geocities.com/leninist_international/kosovo/archive/msg00016.html 

>--- Original Message ---
>From: Macdonald Stainsby <mstainsby-AT-tao.ca>
>To: Leninist International <leninist-international-AT-lists.econ.utah.edu>
>Date: 12/16/01 11:38:55 AM
>

>So are we likely to condemn ourselves to irrelevancy by being
`neutral' when
>they attack Stalinists? What say you...
>
>Macdonald
>----
>
>AP. 16 December 2001. N. Korea Rejects Nuke Inspection.
>
>SEOUL -- North Korea on Sunday rejected U.S. demands for an
inspection
>of its alleged nuclear weapons program and refused to participate
in
>talks on its missile development.
>
>"There is neither condition nor need for the Democratic People's
>Republic of (North) Korea to accept the 'nuclear inspection,'"
said
>Rodong Sinmun, the official newspaper of the North's ruling
Workers'
>Party.
>
>"The same is the case with the 'missile issue,'" it added.
>
>North Korea has increased anti-U.S. rhetoric since President
Bush warned
>this month that it and Iraq would be "held accountable" if they
>developed weapons of mass destruction to carry out terrorism
[read:
>developed weapons in which to defend themselves].
>
>Bush has demanded that the North allow U.N. experts to inspect
its
>nuclear program. The North is believed to have stockpiled enough
>plutonium to make one or two atomic bombs.
>
>The U.S. president has also expressed frustration over the North's
>silence to his proposal in June to resume dialogue and discuss
the
>communist country's missile program and conventional arms.
>
>"The U.S. is going to use the dialogue with the DPRK as a lever
to
>pressure and an opportunity to find a pretext for military provocation,"
>said Rodong. The report was carried by the North's official
news agency,
>KCNA, which was monitored in Seoul.
>
>The North has accused the United States of preparing to make
it the next
>target after Afghanistan in the U.S.-led anti-terrorism campaign.
>
>North Korea maintains a 1.1 million-member military, the world's
fifth
>largest.
>
>The United States [the world's largest military] keeps 37,000
troops in
>South Korea, a legacy of the 1950-53 Korean War. That war ended
in a
>cease-fire, not a peace treaty.
>
>
>-------------------------------------------
>Macdonald Stainsby
>Rad-Green List: Radical anti-capitalist environmental discussion.
>http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/listinfo/rad-green 
>----
>Leninist-International: Building bridges in the tradition of
V.I. Lenin.
>http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/listinfo/leninist-international 
>----
>In the contradiction lies the hope.
>                                     --Bertholt Brecht
>
>
>
>
>     --- from list aut-op-sy-AT-lists.village.virginia.edu ---
>




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