Date: 19 Dec 2001 10:17:14 +0200 From: "Tahir Wood" <twood-AT-uwc.ac.za> Subject: RE: AUT: N. Korea Rejects Nuke Inspection Could I enquire as to what is going on in this post? Who is debating with whom here and what was the intention in posting it? Tahir >>> debsian-AT-pacbell.net 12/16/01 10:24PM >>> On Mark's advice, I'll post this. It's a thread >from within a few folks being provoked by Michael Pugliese. Macdonald ******* > Ah yes, the great legacy of the Serbian Socialist Party. This Great > Shining Revolutionary Beacon of the Working Class undertook capitalist > counter-revolution. That is its sole "achievement". It privatised half the > economy, scrapped workers' management, and undertook a systematic attack on > democratic rights won by the revolution, including banning abortion. Even > "nationalised" industries in Serbia is a bit of a joke since Milosevic and > ex-Titoist bureaucrats he demolished via bribery in fact profit and thieve > from them. I would point out the fact it also funded reactionary and, for > all intensive purposes, petty-bourgeois fascist militia that went on a > rampage through Yugoslavia, but since the imperialists use that as a pretext > for their attacks I'll be accused of a running dog of imperialism... If you mean the paramilitaries, I suggest you get real to the realities of war. In every effect, the IRA is a "paramilitary". The State of Yugoslavia is surrounded by hostile states that are all backed by the most vicious of "fascists" and the NATO powers, particularly Germany and, of course the US. If you want to only have "honorable" troops in such a position, you will quickly be destroyed, no matter what class state you are running. > > These bureaucrats undertook capitalist counter-revolution as much as the > other regimes in Eastern Europe, not least Russia. Milosevic is historically > for Serbia what Yeltsin was for Russia. Utterly false. Given the tide of electoral "openings" in Europe, the Yugoslav communists/socialists had a choice: They could go the way of bourgeois "elections", or risk losing the popularity that the Yugo regime had EARNED for the prior 40 years, through both economics and a very mild state. Yugoslavia did not exist in a vacuum. I don't get something, why is only Cuba allowed to make obviously neccessary concessions to capitalism in time of crisis and isolation? Is it that fiery speech and the revolutionary beard? Vietnam, Cuba and Yugoslavia, in similar circumstances but with very different surroundings, neighbours and traditions have all adapted to the "new world order" in different ways, none of them perfectly. In fact, sacialistic Libya has undergone a similar transition, by allowing by far the most private enterprise since 1969. I guess even Qaddaffi, someone with an espoused hatred for athiestic communism has been "discouraged". It obviously has nothing to do with bending to avoid a break. Here's an idea for these cloud-land critics. Come up with a fucking program that takes everything into account. You miss one little border marker with Bulgaria, and you are dead. This is a new video-game, I call it "Cyber Yugo Commie From Hell". Your mission: It is nineteen eighty-nine. You just saw all the communist bloc countries either give up power, or get overthrown. You have just been cut off from all Western trade. You are watching all indicators fall, yet you have decided to try level one by: Re-nationalising everything! Sorry, comrade, game over, comrade. Total privatisation and the IMF runs your bank. No more Dinar, hello Mark! Well, forgive me, but I subscribe to dialectical materialism. In reality, yes, much of the Yugoslavian regime is corrupt. However, given the situation they have been in, I cannot really see much other than what kind of piecemeal privatisation they have selected they should have picked. I don't have a picture of Milosevic on my wall, if that's what you want from me. However, I really don't care about his family (except his wife), whether or not he beats his dog, or if he prefers to ride in Limos when he rides back and forth to the smoldering wreckage of what was his "mansion". I am concerned with how he and his regime have dealt with a situation in Which they had a basically socialist state to defend in a situation that became worse than pre-1917 practically overnight. If Yeltsin was like Milosevic, as you say, we would be all better off and the West wouldn't give a shot about Milosevic yet. They would still be focused on what would still be called the "hard-liners" who were "stonewalling" in Moscow. Counter-revolutionary sections of > the Stalinist bureaucracy that decided their dachas and the finest 1985 > bottles of Ukrainian wine weren't enough...they wanted profit. So they > abandoned their cynical allegiance to Marx, Engels and Lenin and their hobby > horse of "socialism" and became the nouveau riche bourgeoisie. Perhaps I > should point out that the richest man in Serbia is the Minister of > Privatisation... Maja, a Serbian activist I'm sure you all remember, > described the regime she has the misfortune to live under as > 'kleptocracy'....'government of thieves'. > Oh, Shit. Comrade, a couple of days ago off line we agreed how funny it was that there are still Marxists who talk about big man theories of history, like the one about the "great revisionist coup" in 56. Now, here you are rolling out the same crap. *It just doesn't work that way*! There are probably some time serving bureaucrats in Cuba (although if any country could wipe em out...) who want to get rich and privatise, etc... there is a reason why they don't and can't. It sure as hell isn't how rich Cuba is, either. The state of Yugoslavia should not be judged against the ideal we all cherish, of workers councils. These slogans are good as battle cries, but absolutely useless as litmus tests. Judge Yugoslavia against, say, Romania. Or any other state in East Europe. Just go with the basic indicators. That'l tell the tale of the tape. If you still want to hate Milosevic, that's your business, but I'll keep watching. > There is also the mere fact that the Socialist Party is in coalition with > fascists, the Serbian Radical Party led by Sesijl, Serbia's very own > Monsieur Le Pen or Mr. Zhironivsky. Again, If there had been no way to run an electoral system, the whole system might have gone down the tubes. What you have is a parliamentary system. What is amazing is how well they have been kept at bay. I find it very hard to stomach yet > symptomatic of the state of the left that any party that commits itself to a > political alliance with fascists should find itself being heralded by > self-proclaimed Western leftists. Again *only in current conditions!*. Wave a flag of Lenin and October at them all you like, it won't make that possible in little Serbia/Montenegro. It obviously has a bit of a thing with > reactionaries because it had a slight romance with Vuk Draskovic, who calls > for the restoration of the monarchy and as far back as 1990 suggested > expelling all Albanians from Kosovo. > It got him off the streets and left him totally discredited as an opporunist and a traitor. Now he can't pay people to show up, and has successfully fucked up the entire "democratic opposition". BTW, my prediction is as follows: a few days ago, Yugoslavia was left off the list of "human rights violators". When the CIA/money starts to actually have some success in building a fifth column in Yugoslavia and the SPS decides it has had enough of that shit and deals with it properly, then they get on the list. Personally, I consider ii somewhat a badge of honour. > I would also point out the fact the fascist component of the regime, > represented by Sesijl's faction, succeeded in its stated aim of attempting > the forced expulsion of all Kosovar Albanians from Yugoslav soil. Oh sorry, > Mac, I forgot you have a bit of a liking for the Jared School of > Falsification which denies this ever happened, a man with (to be reserved) a > more than dubious link with reality, who I presume has a motto in Latin that > translates as: "If the fact or source don't exist, make it up!" What is *your* evidence? Sheer repetition? I personally believe that shit happens in War, and that paramilitaries are mainly responsible. A plan to drive em all out? Maybe in certain areas, that might make military sense, but just straight up racist purging does not. It wouldn't help matters for FRY anyways. > > I don't understand why you have such a fetish for Milosevic. Surely if that > sort of filth turns you on, a similar (indeed counterpart) regime, like that > of Tudjman, would have more revolutionary appeal. There is the mere fact him > and his Croatian bureaucrat fellow travellers committed capitalist > counter-revolution like Good Old Slobo, but Tudjman was a general under Tito > in the Revolution who actually engaged in armed combat with fascists and > helped the victory of Titoism in Yugoslavia. His regime might be reactionary > to the core...but at least he has the history, whereas Milosevic has a > less-than-dignified past that perhaps does not meet the heroism of Che > Guevara - as a banker in Belgrade. > Umm... does "Fuck You" about cover it? Read alittle more, this is arrogant BS. > It is often said that one indicator of the progressive nature of a regime > is its treatment of women...that can now be said about homosexuals. > Milosevic's regime fails on both counts. Miserably. > Agreed. But no one is calling this a workers paradise, so keep your zeal to a minimium. You're reminding me of the Spartacist League. > Just because we support Yugoslavia militarily against imperialist onslaught > does not mean we start heralding its regime as the next best thing since > sliced bread and Bolshevism. Though Mac's infatuation with his glorious > Milosevic regime might have something to do with his also much-loved North > Korean Workers' Party and its shows of solidarity with the SSP (I think that > state is a leading contestant for 'Most Miserable Corner Of The Earth' award > and probably comes closer than the USSR under Stalin for the most realised > version of Orwell's '1984'). Like: "We welcome the Serbian Socialist Party's > great triumphs over the last ten years. Kim Il Jung, Socialist God of All > The World Who Is Personally Leading North Korea's Great Triumphant March To > Communism, To Whom Life Owes Its Very Existence On The Earth, Whom Makes The > Sun Rise And Set And Makes The Birds Sing At First Light, Who Makes Crops > Grow And Flourish And Iron Production Increase By 999999% This Year, said > Milosevic was a great statesman...." http://www.geocities.com/leninist_international/kosovo/archive/msg00016.html >--- Original Message --- >From: Macdonald Stainsby <mstainsby-AT-tao.ca> >To: Leninist International <leninist-international-AT-lists.econ.utah.edu> >Date: 12/16/01 11:38:55 AM > >So are we likely to condemn ourselves to irrelevancy by being `neutral' when >they attack Stalinists? What say you... > >Macdonald >---- > >AP. 16 December 2001. N. Korea Rejects Nuke Inspection. > >SEOUL -- North Korea on Sunday rejected U.S. demands for an inspection >of its alleged nuclear weapons program and refused to participate in >talks on its missile development. > >"There is neither condition nor need for the Democratic People's >Republic of (North) Korea to accept the 'nuclear inspection,'" said >Rodong Sinmun, the official newspaper of the North's ruling Workers' >Party. > >"The same is the case with the 'missile issue,'" it added. > >North Korea has increased anti-U.S. rhetoric since President Bush warned >this month that it and Iraq would be "held accountable" if they >developed weapons of mass destruction to carry out terrorism [read: >developed weapons in which to defend themselves]. > >Bush has demanded that the North allow U.N. experts to inspect its >nuclear program. The North is believed to have stockpiled enough >plutonium to make one or two atomic bombs. > >The U.S. president has also expressed frustration over the North's >silence to his proposal in June to resume dialogue and discuss the >communist country's missile program and conventional arms. > >"The U.S. is going to use the dialogue with the DPRK as a lever to >pressure and an opportunity to find a pretext for military provocation," >said Rodong. The report was carried by the North's official news agency, >KCNA, which was monitored in Seoul. > >The North has accused the United States of preparing to make it the next >target after Afghanistan in the U.S.-led anti-terrorism campaign. > >North Korea maintains a 1.1 million-member military, the world's fifth >largest. > >The United States [the world's largest military] keeps 37,000 troops in >South Korea, a legacy of the 1950-53 Korean War. That war ended in a >cease-fire, not a peace treaty. > > >------------------------------------------- >Macdonald Stainsby >Rad-Green List: Radical anti-capitalist environmental discussion. >http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/listinfo/rad-green >---- >Leninist-International: Building bridges in the tradition of V.I. Lenin. >http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/listinfo/leninist-international >---- >In the contradiction lies the hope. > --Bertholt Brecht > > > > > --- from list aut-op-sy-AT-lists.village.virginia.edu --- > --- from list aut-op-sy-AT-lists.village.virginia.edu --- --- from list aut-op-sy-AT-lists.village.virginia.edu ---
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