From: Montyneill-AT-aol.com
Date: Sun, 9 Dec 2001 13:31:11 EST
Subject: Re: AUT: Re: Re: re: the real movement definition again



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In a message dated 12/9/2001 2:00:23 AM Eastern Standard Time, 
haraldba-AT-online.no writes:

No particular additions to make to the formulations an arguments amongst the 
3 of you who have been prominent in the discussion of communism. I suspect 
you are all quite close to each other, so the discussion is more on 
sharpening and fine-tuning. Aside from the debate on Marx-as-social-democrat 
(my sense is that indeed that is one of the things he was some of the time; 
so am I, to be honest - we live in non-revolutionary times; perhaps another 
time to discuss and why in effect I am even when I don't want to be), the 
agreement seems most of the time to be substantial.

Anyway, sitting here with a nasty cold and kind of foggy-headed, I have not 
much to add. I think we end up understanding that consciousness of one's (or 
the group's) situation and possibilities and desires that tends toward 
revolution emerges out of activity, including the activity of thinking and 
talking and writing and analyzing, and many factors contribute to it, 
including the interventions of those who seek some sort of revolution. I 
don't think there is a formula here, nor do I know enough history in enough 
detail to understand well how even in one instance of attempted w.c. 
revolution it 'all' came together - and why it was then not enough to win or 
sustain for more than a brief time a victory. I have ideas of course on this, 
but nothing I think at all certain about. 

To one part of your comment, Harald:
> Self-confidence and the belief in that the
> possibility of making a real difference, and even some belief in
> the very possibility to organising the world in a radical differnent
> way, enters into this.
> 
Yes, I think so. In the early days of Midnight Notes, we offered a prize for 
the person who would give us the best reply to the question, Why do we (w.c.) 
put up with all this shit? We never got any particular reply. I always have 
thought it had much to do with trust, the ability to trust others within the 
class that if "I" take risks then others will also and won't sell me out. 
Maybe self-confidence is part of that (or it is part of self confidence), and 
I think the idea that one can win something, "make a difference," matters a 
lot as well - quite enormously. One may quite dislike capitalism and be aware 
of being exploited and alienated - but decide there is nothing to be done, no 
chance of change, both because not knowing what can be gained and not sure 
others would do anything. 

Here I think Chris' comment to the effect that our past understandings of 
revolution are at best inadequate and we have to rethink is to the point. Not 
that we will conjure up what post-capitalist society will look like and then 
proceed to implement it, but that there is some sort of dialectic between 
imagining what the world could be and the actions of all sorts of actors in 
trying to change immediate or longer-term circumstances. That is, having some 
kind of vision matters, and the different kinds of visions circulating in and 
out of thinking and action are part of the process of struggle. 

I think it is quite daunting -- it is a big world out there, and while I 
think it true that as much that can be localized for decision-making and 
control should be, much cannot; and on the other side, if revolution in one 
country was ever a possibility, it surely has not been for a long time - not 
even in the US I would say (independent of the fact that if revolution were 
on the agenda in the US, the world would already be a very different place). 
If so, how can revolution be in practice a planetary activity? Yes, networks 
and communication and circulation of struggle - but those are too vague to 
mean much to me. Much for us to pay attention to and study and try to make 
with the specialized skills we have some contributions in this regard.

Enough for now, guess I wrote a lot more than I intended, hope it is coherent 
and not entirely redundant of the things under discussion that you all have 
posted.

Be well,
Monty


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