From: "Greg Schofield" <g_schofield-AT-dingoblue.net.au>
Subject: Re: AUT: alternatives to capitalist cuba?
Date: Mon, 11 Mar 2002 18:11:48 +0800


Tahir I have had my disagreements with you in the past and have avoided this thread until now.

I find myself almost fully in agreement with you below though. I will not bother with the mere details of disagreement - the role of these revolutions, despite the aspirations of those involved in proletarianising these countries, of creating initial capital and indeed developing their economies cannot be underrated. History is full of ironies this "socialism" has not delivered what was intended but it has delivered in historical terms.

I have not read Bordiga on this and am now quite eager to do so (could you send some references?). Years ago (1980's) I argued a similar line only to be howled down as a an arch-revisionist it is good to see that others have done a better job.

I will add to the mix - the hostility of West Germany to the productive capacity of East Germany after unification. Much could be said of the possiblities that existed in the former USSR and were killed off by calculated neglect and corruption.

The collapse of East Germany politically left significant means of production, dated but still useful. In any other circumstances this should have lead to a gigantic injection of capital into these industries (updating them, absorbing the existing skills base and just on nationalist grounds making Germany stronger). However, the lack of a bourgeoisie was much more of a problem - as the natural owners of the means of production in old East Germany was in fact the workers within these industries. Of this the German Bourgeoisie did not want a bar, better for the East to become a defecit on the whole of Germany.

SO to air just one minor disagreement, more about terminology then anything you have said. Might not a state-capitalist country be a socialist one (socialisied means of production) without being the first phase of communism (proletarian socialism) - ie socialism of another class (ie a bureacracy, or in Lenin's day the Junkers and perhaps in our day the bourgeois themeselves ala Saint Simon). 

Furthermore, perhaps such a strong line on socialism in one country (which has a history as well as a simple meaning) is not so necessary - uneven development will mean that someone has to start off the new round of revolutionary changes at some point proletarian socialism will emerge in one place first, or a few isolated places why not socialism in one country (at least for a time ;  ))?

I now strongly regret not paying attention to this thread and hope I have not further muddied the waters - basically I very good posting Tahir as far as I am concerned.



--- Message Received ---
From: Tahir Wood <twood-AT-uwc.ac.za>
To: aut-op-sy-AT-lists.village.virginia.edu
Date: 11 Mar 2002 10:35:32 +0200
Subject: Re: AUT: alternatives to capitalist cuba?

>>> miyachi9-AT-gctv.ne.jp 03/08/02 08:15PM >>>
About Cuba, and ex-USSR, or current China, I think, they can be defined as
transitional state rather communism nor capitalism.

I think this is really the only important point. The Leninist argument turns on just this point. If these societies are not in transition to communism then they really don't have any significance as "socialist states". I agree with those who have cited Bordiga's argument in this discussion: that all of the regimes that we have been talking about are actually in a transition to capitalism. That is, the revolution from above has precisely the function of doing what Bordiga identified as the essence of capitalism: "capitalism is the revolution in agriculture". From such a perspective it makes very little sense to distinguish rigidly the 'state capitalist' project in Cuba from say that of Franco's Spain. To say that one or other state had some greater measure of social welfare or something similar comes nowhere near the main point. The idea that a "socialist state" ("socialism" in one country) is a way of leading to communism is a religious belief. It could only have been said to have been proved if it had shown at least some sign of going that way, but of course there is no such evidence at all. 

Personally I believe that the argument for socialism as the lower stage of communism can only have meaning on an international scale, because that would imply each of the former nation states being liberated from a world system. It is important I think to not slip into the kind of voluntarist argument here, which is very vulnerable to ridicule, namely that Castro et all did not create genuine socialism because they were too reactionary in their ideas, too stupid, too lazy or some such thing. They didn't create socialism as the lower stage of communism because no one can in a situation like that. The idea itself is a nonsense. Once you take charge of a nation state within the framework of global capitalism you are administering a capitalist state and there's no way out of that. All you will do is create a measure of semi-autarkic development for a while, which history will show to have been the development of capitalism, despite what the intentions behind it were - China is the most beautifully clear example of this that we can now see. So what are the options then for such countries? Let's talk about that rather - that's more what I had in mind for the direction of this discussion when I initiated the thread.
Tahir


____________________
Greg Schofield
Perth Australia
g_schofield-AT-dingoblue.net.au
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