Date: 12 Mar 2002 16:46:24 +0200
From: "Tahir Wood" <twood-AT-uwc.ac.za>
Subject: Re: AUT: alternatives to capitalist cuba?




>>> g_schofield-AT-dingoblue.net.au 03/12/02 04:02PM >>>
I will look up the Bordiga reference s and thanks.

But Tahir I cannot believe what you have written below, I can only think this isa result of profound misunderstanding.

Tahir: See my comments below.

1) No transition from capitalism to communism.

Tahir: Not directly, not without disrupting the world system of nation states. I probably did not express this as well as I could have. I meant that there can be no communism within an essentially capitalist world order.

2) Any revolution within a nation state will have a capitalist character.

Tahir: I believe that this will be the case if the dominant world system remains capitalist, yes. All the available examples seem to show this to me. The Goldner piece that I recommended explains very well why this has been the case in the examples we have been discussing.

3)But a transition is possible as a result of international movement nonetheless.

Tahir: Yes of course. But it will mean precisely the destruction of the nation states that we know and which are structural features of the capitalist system.

4)Such a movement CAN bring about reforms and weaken the ruling class.

Tahir: Yes of course; they push the ruling class onto the defensive and inspire the masses.

OK lets assume it is not a slip of the pen, or just a basic misunderstanding of terms. Let me skip over the contradiction between 1 and 3.

Tahir: No contradiction in my view, but maybe badly explained by me.

You are saying that only a sponatenous

Tahir: I'm not sure that the term "spontaneous" necessarily captures what I was saying. It seems to imply that organisation is unnecessary. I wouldn't say that.

 and similtanous international uprising can WEAKEN the ruling class and gain some reforms, but the very same thing (presumable) on a more local level cannot?

Tahir: OK this is where I think you do misunderstand me. Rather than type out a lengthy exposition here I will simply say that at what you call the "local level" the project is to push the bourgeoisie into reforms that are beneficial to the workers and which weaken the power of the ruling class. But I don't believe that communists should ever take over a nation state with the aim of running it "better" than the bourgeoisie do. Reforms are things that the bourgeoisie do in response to our pressures. Reforms are not things that communists do. But on an international scale there is one major project and that is the elimination of the world capitalist system.

I think you have misunderstood entirely the nature of Proletarian Socialism as the transitionary form between the capitalist mode of production and that of communism. This is what I am talking about and of course it has international implications and expression, but do you seriously believe that it would begin evenly and at the same time acroiss the entire earth.

Tahir: No, but without a significant revolutionary offensive that extends across a number of nation states it won't happen at all. I guess I've made the point that there cannot be socialism in one country, where socialism means the lower stage of communism.

 History would tend to point to anything on this scale appearing uneven, sometimes contradictorily and always messily in the real world.

Tahir: Of course. But I think you have the idea that revolution spreads easily across one country but not so easily across borders. Isn't that what most of your message is implying? And I say that that's because the true internationalist movement is only being born now. In the earlier days they used to form CPs for each separate nation. Even Bordiga did that.

Tahir, how about scrtyaching

Tahir: ?????

 this one and let us begin again and make sure that we are both talking about the same thing.

Tahir: Sure. Look forward to it.


--- Message Received ---
From: Tahir Wood <twood-AT-uwc.ac.za>
To: aut-op-sy-AT-lists.village.virginia.edu 
Date: 12 Mar 2002 10:12:25 +0200
Subject: Re: AUT: alternatives to capitalist cuba?
<Snip>

There can be no transition that I can see from something that is essentially capitalism to communism. And any revolution that occurs within the framework of nation states will take on a capitalist character, regardless of whether the intention is to "build socialism" or whatever. But this problem is exacerbated when the country is more backward and dependent. That is why the only possibility of socialism in the marxist sense, i.e. as a transition to communism, can occur as a result of an international movement. This of course does not mean that the pressures of this movement can not bring about reforms in the meantime that are favourable to workers and weaken the ruling class.



Greg Schofield
Perth Australia
g_schofield-AT-dingoblue.net.au 
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