From: "Greg Schofield" <g_schofield-AT-dingoblue.net.au>
Subject: Re: AUT: Perplexing left silliness
Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2002 23:46:41 +0800


Nate what you said below is a fair enough position to take, but I started the thread which became the interrelated "perplexing" sub-threads. I have had to scan most of them to see if anything I originally raised would see the light of day, and while not reading carefully I saw enough to raise these small misgivings.

1) The quality of debate, its clarity and its useful depends on actually adressing issues raised. 

2) Persistence of low level debate, in fact tolerance of it is no virtue. We have a duty to raise, not lower, the content of debate.

3) Now I am not condemning anyone for enjoying such displays, but I am condemning the display as such. It is a sign of our degeneracy and part cause of it.

4) Every comrade in every debate deserves to be debated fairly and attempts must be made to read the intent of posts and answer the substance of what is being put forward.

5) Airing opinions without even an attempt to provide a reasoned account of them is to be discouraged, however amusing it may be.

6) Miscasting an argument, purposefully distorting it is likewise unacceptable.

7) Making allowances for unfortunate expressions of ideas, allowing comrades to reorganise their views and not making too much of either should be encouraged.

All these things are simple logical rules fo conducting proper debates, nearly everyone of them was broken in this latest foray.

Nate I am may be accused of interference and priggishness and sometimes more than a little hypocrisy. If you enjoyed everyones opinions so much, then make room to enjoy mine by the same measure, or is an opinion about the nature of debate of such a different species that your own rule does not hold? I could add that yes indeed I should start another thread, I believe that is the one you have just joined ; )

Now lets put spleen aside and seriously discuss how discussions should take place. Afterall the point of discussion is to get somewhere.

And Andy, I do not have the humour to enjoy your pranks so much, if you care to indulge in some plain English I will respond.


--- Message Received ---
From: Nate Holdren <nateholdren-AT-hotmail.com>
To: aut-op-sy-AT-lists.village.virginia.edu
Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2002 10:32:34 -0500
Subject: Re: AUT: Perplexing left silliness

Greg-
Sorry this discussion hasn't been your favorite so far. There have been some 
problems with it. Personally, though, I've enjoyed it (and t that IS one 
reason I'm on this list, because I enjoy it, which doesn't make me any less 
revolutionary). And I've found it valuable to get some clarity on the 
positions of two comrade both of whom I disagree with in different ways 
(Ilan and Scott). That clarity makes it easier for me to have a productive 
conversation because I know better where my disagreements are and where were 
just misunderstandings or misreadings.
If you haven't enjoyed the discussion, you could join in and raise some 
points. Or if you think the whole discussion is silly you could just delete 
the emails, like some of us have been doing with the Cuba argument. Even 
better, you could propose a new topic or start a new and better discussion 
that addresses what you want addressed. One point that is not helpful 
though, is to wade in, chastise us, and express that we disgust you. When 
you do that I just want to be rude and swear at you or delete your email 
without replying.

cheers
Nate

Greg Schofield
Perth Australia
g_schofield-AT-dingoblue.net.au
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