Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2002 00:47:22 +0000 (GMT)
From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Scott=20Hamilton?= <s_h_hamilton-AT-yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: AUT: Perplexing Ilan


 
So far the discussion of why currents flow in the
directions they do has had a rather idealist
character. Ilan and Harald seem to think that
Leninists are doomed to sell out because of the set of
ideas they hold; Nate and Thiago think that ideas do
not have such a teleological force, but do not really
venture any other possible explanantions for the
trajectory of political organisations. 

We need to get back, in my view, to the concept of
class. I think it is the class composition combined
with ideology that determines the course of a current
decisively. Example: my friend Phil Ferguson has done
a lot of study of the NZ Labour Party; he argues that
by the 1920s this party had a middle class/labour
aristocracy character, and that thereafter a dialectic
existed between this social base, on the one hand, and
the party's pro-working class poltiics, on the other. 
He argues that this dialectic was resolved with the
election of Labour in 1935 (he regards the first
labour administrationa s the author of pro-capital
policies).

It was not hard to pick the Greens' trajectory,
because neither their politics (ideas) nor their class
composition were rooted in the working class. It's
about time we picked up on the critiques of the petit
bourgeois radicalism and right wing anti-globalisation
which the Greens represent, and the relationship
between that radicalism and the development (or,
rather, degeneration) of capitalism.



--- topp8564-AT-mail.usyd.edu.au wrote: > Quoting Nate
Holdren <nateholdren-AT-hotmail.com>:
> 
> > Hi Thiago-
> > I'm replying to your question to me about
> establishing who tomorrow's 
> > oppressors are and to your reply to Ilan's
> comments.
> > First, "supporting tomorrow's oppressors" may have
> been an unwarranted
> > 
> > rhetorical flourish. 
> 
> On the contrary, I mean what I said literally. I
> meant: supporting today people 
> who look reasonable and do and say good things, who,
> due to unforeseen 
> developments, become utter bastards. Pretending we
> are in 1974, Joschka Fischer. 
> Pretending we are in 1967, David Horowitz (up to a
> point). 
> 
> > In the one example Ilan has given, he talked about
> > not 
> > supporting movements that would divide the working
> class, such as racist
> > 
> > trade unionists. I think that's a fairly obvious
> and really not all that
> > 
> > interesting of a point. It's a safe bet that given
> a chance, racists
> > will 
> > probably do something or support somone
> oppressive. Therefore, if we
> > support 
> > racists we're supporting people with ends counter
> to our own (people who
> > 
> > could be overly grandly called 'the oppressors of
> tomorrow').
> > This isn't a very interesting point, nor a very
> controversial one. It's
> > 
> > really all I meant to say though.
> 
> Fair enough; I think this is a good point. My point
> isn't controversial either. 
> I just want to say that it is better to not support
> racists because they are 
> racist, rather than to draw a convoluted hypothesis
> about the effect of 
> supporting racists on the prospects for long-term
> revolution.
> 
> > The example of the german greens is a good one.
> I'd vote for a green 
> > candidate in an election, because I think the
> green would probably be
> > better 
> > than any other candidate (if I voted) in
> supporting my interests. The
> > green 
> > politician still might (probably would) end up
> being a hated class enemy
> > 
> > later, no surprise right?
> 
> Depends. Suppose you voted for the AG Greens
> thinking they were going to be 
> pacifists, and then it turns out that they are
> sending the Luftwaffe out to raid 
> the Serbs. There is an element of sheer deception
> involved; but who knows? There 
> were some serious strains in the German government
> at the time. There was 
> the whole circus and the elimination of Oskar
> Lafontaine. Maybe the Greens could 
> have forced a peace line through; perhaps to someone
> voting in 1997 (is that 
> when the elections were - I don't remember) this was
> a plausible scenario - ie. 
> that the Greens would put a stop on war talk.
> 
> What they could not have foreseen is the extent to
> which the rhetoric of 
> humanitarian intervention would have spread. Sure it
> was there, and we can trace 
> its history, but the ascent of this discourse to
> hegemony - to the extent the AG 
> Greens would believe in it - was, in my view,
> surprising. 
> 
> And how would anyone have guessed the enormous
> change from this discourse to the 
> present war on terror? Anyone, that is, other than
> Osama bin Laden.
> 
> It is easy to make a fundamental stand and not
> compromise with anything or 
> anyone. All you have to do is follow what C.S.
> Pierce called the method of 
> tenacity. Don't open the paper, since it might
> convince you of something you 
> don't want to be convinced of. But the moment you
> start making choices as to 
> whom you want to support partially, who are your
> tactical friends and foes, who 
> is good but needs criticism, who is bad but can do
> good things - well, then you 
> have to be prepared to face the fact that reality
> can't be settled with 
> pronouncements of doctrine.
> 
> Thiago
> 
> > 
> > Nate
> > 
> > 
> > > >> I am curious how you establish who the
> oppressors of tomorrow
> > are.
> > > >
> > > > It is easy to predict when you understand
> class society and the
> > dynamics 
> > >of
> > > > blocking of the free-from-authority access of
> working people to
> > means of
> > > > production.
> > >
> > >Yes but how can I tell if supporting the greens
> in my local town will,
> > in
> > >twenty years time, lead to them throwing their
> lot in with the the
> > bombers?
> > >How would anyone have guessed the way Joschka
> Fischer went?
> > >
> > >Human affairs are radically unpredictable...
> > >
> > > >
> > > >> How do we know the trajectory of long-term
> struggle?
> > > >
> > > > If humans were not able to predict long-range
> trajectory - the
> > rockets
> > > > would not have reached the moon and the stars.
> > >
> > >...in a way newtonian physics isn't.
> > >
> > >Throwing a rock at the moon is pretty easy
> physics; there are only
> > two
> > >objects involved, the rocket itself being to
> small to matter. Three 
> > >objects,
> > >however, and you have chaos.
> > >
> > >
> > > >
> > > >> Has someone worked this out?
> > > >
> > > > About 57 years ago the scientists have already
> found the dynamics
> > of
> > > > authoritarianism in Humans. (You can even
> measure it quite easily
> > > > with the appropriate scale.)
> > >
> > >No kidding. Better let the scientists run the
> show then, he?
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > >
> > > >> Is there a blueprint somewhere I can check to
> see which struggles
> > to 
> > >support
> > > >> today and which ones to oppose?
> > > >
> > > > People with authoritarian tendencies are
> searching for
> > "blueprints".
> > > > More flexible people find it more contributing
> to have a good
> > theory
> > > > with application principles.
> > >
> > >Ok, so there are no blueprints. Tell me, isn't
> "authoritarian
> > tendency"
> > >something which you observe today? If so, is
> there also a 
> > "inalterably
> > >antiauthoritarian tendency" which we can observe
> today, which would
> > >guarantee that the anarchists of today won't , in
> 20 years time,
> > become
> > >slimeballs?
> > >
> > >Don't get me wrong: I share you hope for
> antiauthoritarianism- I just
> > don't
> > >have faith in it.
> > >
> > >Your original claim was we should not join any
> movement which ran
> > counter 
> > >to
> > >long-term revolutionary goals. I don't see how
> you can do this unless
> > you
> > >claim to be able to predict , in the long run,
> what will happen to
> > society.
> > >You now say that you cannot specify what these
> may be, and instead
> > propose
> > >that we ally ourselves with "antiauthoritarians".
> Ok, that is wise, but
> > who
> > >is to say that the actions of antiauthoritarians
> will necessarily
> > bring
> > >forth revolution? It need not be.
> Antiauthoritarian is a very loose
> > >description, and people change all the time.  So
> this principle,
> > alliance
> > >with the antiauthoritarians may clash with your
> first , ie. not
> > acting
> > >against the long-term revolution.
> > >
> > >I think that you have not followed the logic of
> your thoughts through
> > to
> > >their conclusion. It's not a bad conclusion, it
> just means we drop the
> > talk
> > >about "revolutionary ends", and the silly stuff
> about scientists
> > knowing
> > >stuff about human behaviour they don't know.
> > >
> > >Truly antiauthoritarian thought demands
> justification for the authority
> > of
> > >goals: long term revolutionary goals included.
> And what did you
> > provide?
> > >Appeals to an analogy to natural science and
> psychology goofballs.
> > That's
> > >not very encouraging.
> > >
> > > >
> > > >> Not even Marx, the arch-teleologist, did
> this, as Carrol pointed
> > out.
> > > >
> > > > If the new born children were conditioned
> walking on a clear
> > > > blueprint for walking... we were all of us
> reptile.
> > > > Ilan
> > >
> > >?
> > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >    --- from list
> aut-op-sy-AT-lists.village.virginia.edu ---
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >      --- from list
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> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> >
>
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> > 
> 
> 
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===="Revolution is not like cricket, not even one day cricket"

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