From: "cwright" <cwright-AT-21stcentury.net>
Subject: AUT: Re: Practical resoltions was "what could Proletarian socialism mean?"
Date: Thu, 28 Mar 2002 10:19:34 -0600


Greg,

> We could battle it out, fortress to fortress, but I think we both know
this will do little good, as these fortresses protect a hinterland which
supplies the reason for the defense in the first place. Any such conflict
would only bring into battle the outwork defenses in pretty predicatable set
place moves which in the end mean that we both retire unbeaten but also
without intellectual victory (defined by finding some new resolution which
sheds practical political light on things).

Not only do I agree, but we are also probably wearing our welcome out on the
list :)

> My suggestion is to move the contest of ideas onto these hinterlands,
where we might find they join and dissolve the battlefronts automatically.
The problem is how to describe them in a way so we can both navigate towards
a new but useful debate.

Hell, I'll give it a try.

> I suggest that this might be a new ground on which to debate - you may
feel otherwise, but I will begin by illustrating how I think my viewpoint
translates into practice (and obviously this has to be said at a level of
generalisation in order to convey the main thoughts - ie not a program that
is expected to standup to detailed criticism). However, first I need to
condense my view into a concise statement.
>
> My view (avoiding references to stages altogether):
>
> 1) the capital labour relation and alienation of labour is a persientant
problem even after the proletariate gains power.
>
> 2) the dictatorship of the proletariat extends over such an extended
period of transition, determined by the persistence of the capital labour
relation.
>
> 3) whatever else changes in the initial taking of class power, continued
struggle is unavoidable and is in fact an expression of growing liberation
(a spiral of development).
>
> 4) the expropriation of the bourgeoisie, creates the beginings of
collective property as state capitalism, which in turn presents
contradictions which are the mainspring of further struggle.
>
> 5) the resolution of this struggle, the final liberation, is humanity's
species-being as conscious subjects of history (ie real human history begins
at this point). It is thus a struggle against economic relations as such,
against alienated labour of any kind and its nature is measured only by this
achievement.
>
> Chris I put this forward as a single concept, with which you no-doubt
disagree, but I ask you to acknowledge that it presents an inter-related and
consistant whole (which is not a concession that it is in anyway correct as
such). That is a big ask as it suggests that it it is possibly correct, even
if in your opinion it is probably not.

No, I agree that this is consistent based on your understanding of certain
concepts.

> in fact it is also an invitation for you to compress your thoughts down to
a nub as well, and hopeful I too can concede they present a coherent whole
(it is a invitation not a demand as the request is unusual enough to pose
problems for even the best worked out concept - it took me some time to cut
away all the excess to get to these five interdependant points).

If I can do that.  This whole process has been at the expense of some other
things I am doing, so I may have to take a break for a while.  I welcome the
general intent, however, and will try to drop a short note to that effect
later.

Cheers,
Chris





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