From: "Nate Holdren" <nateholdren-AT-hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: AUT: Re: Trotsky, Cohn-Bendit
Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2002 10:34:15 -0400


Hi Scott-
Thanks for the reply. You raise  a number of good valid points, all of which 
I'll take into account if I get around to trying to make a serious 
estimation of Trotsky and Trotskyism. You're right that a lot of folks who 
I'm interested in come out of the Trotskyist movements (Castoriadis, James, 
and Dunayevskaya being 3 really big ones).  I must admit though, somewhat 
embarrassed, that what I'm after right now is really not a serious analysis 
and estimation of Trotsky. I think I said this in my email where I raised 
these question, but just in case - what I'm kicking around in my head is not 
a piece of analysis so much as a piece of character assassination aimed at 
using quotes from Trotsky as part of attacking specific Trotskyists here in 
Chicago (ISO being one group as well as other Trotskyist folks who are not 
to my knowledge part of a given Trot organization) who did a great deal of 
damage by their actions as part of the Chicago antiwar coalitions right 
after 9/11. I'm still torn between having the piece a genuine anti-Trot 
leaflet aimed at impacting their role in actions and events here in Chicago, 
or if it'll just be something for myself and my antivanguardist friends to 
read and be smug about.
You have rightly caught me out in an endeavor that I admit is a touch 
unsavory. I'm relatively okay with that.
Beyond my own experiences w/ Trots and other vanguardists I don't know 
enough about Trotskyists worldwide to have particularly interesting things 
to say about them that would contribute to a productive conversation about 
it on this list. Given the limited bookreading time I've got and considering 
my reading interests this situation is not likely to change any time soon.


best wishes,

Nate




>From: Scott Hamilton <s_h_hamilton-AT-yahoo.com>
>Reply-To: aut-op-sy-AT-lists.village.virginia.edu
>To: aut-op-sy-AT-lists.village.virginia.edu
>Subject: Re: AUT: Re: Trotsky, Cohn-Bendit
>Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2002 04:53:40 +0100 (BST)
>
>
>Nate, you say you want to criticise 'Trotsky and
>Trotskyist' organisations over the role they played
>after 9/11, but you say somewhere else that you don't
>have a clear idea of what the theory of imperialism
>is. Isn't there a problem here?
>
>I would be interested to know the names of the
>organisations you want to criticise. In all
>likelihood, one of them is the ISO, a former member of
>the International Socialist Tendency which takes Tony
>Cliff as its leading theoretician.  After the Second
>World War, Cliff revised all of the key doctrines of
>the 4th International Trotsky founded. If you want to
>understand the politics of the IST you would be better
>off reading *Kautsky's* rather than Trotsky's
>'Terorrism and Communism' (Trotsky was replying to
>Kautsky). You might even want to try some of the
>thinkers who are popular on this list - Castoriadis,
>for instance, who used to get published in Cliff's
>Socialist Review - before you try Trotsky.
>
>Cohn-Bendit is an interesting source for you to use
>against Trotsky, since he has gone on to become a
>full-blooded bourgeois politician. If Trotsky's words
>in 1921 are enough to convict Trotskyists in 2001, why
>are Cohn-Bendit's writings thirty years ago to be
>trusted?
>
>Cheers
>Scott
>
>
>
>
>
>
>  --- cwright <cwright-AT-21stcentury.net> wrote: > Hey
>Nate,
> >
> > Communism and Terrorism and his Military Writings
> > are great sources for
> > really bad stuff.  But there is a lot that is in
> > bits and pieces all over
> > the place.  Get the Kronstadt book put out by
> > Pathfinder Press for some
> > choice materials and look at the suppression of the
> > Workers' Opposition in
> > the 1921 Congress.  Victor Serge's biography has
> > some stuff worth looking at
> > at that time as well.  Also try Voline's book on the
> > Russina Revolution.
> >
> > Maurice Brinton's book on the Bolsheviks and Workers
> > Control is a good
> > source for nasty quotes from Trotsky and especially
> > Lenin.
> >
> > His writings on literature and art are in two main
> > collections, his book
> > Literature and Revolution and a collection piece
> > call Trotsky on Art and
> > Literature and Problems of Everday Life has some
> > stuff.  Some of it is good.
> > Trotsky is more given to appreciating contemporary
> > art than say Lenin, but
> > it all pales in comparison to the SI.  But it is not
> > his worst stuff and he
> > makes sensible arguments against 'proletarian
> > culture' nonsense.
> >
> > Cheers,
> > Chris
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Nate Holdren" <nateholdren-AT-hotmail.com>
> > To: <aut-op-sy-AT-lists.village.virginia.edu>
> > Sent: Tuesday, October 15, 2002 9:16 PM
> > Subject: AUT: Trotsky, Cohn-Bendit
> >
> >
> > > Greetings listmates-
> > > I'm reading Cohn-Bendit's _Obsolete Communism_
> > (yes I know about his later
> > > carreer, no diatribes please).
> > > He quotes Trotsky saying all these horrible
> > things, it's really great, but
> > > he doesn't cite a source or anything, other than
> > remarks Trotsky made to
> > > some party congress (#9 I think) and that he wrote
> > some of this in
> > > DIctatorship vs Democracy, which I can't find.
> > >
> > > Leon says things like "the workers must not be
> > allowed to roam all over
> > > Russia. They must be sent where they are needed,
> > called up and directed
> > like
> > > soldiers. Labour must be directed most intensely
> > during the transition of
> > > capitalism to socialism" and "was it true that
> > compulsory labour was
> > always
> > > unproductive?" and "coercion, regimentation, and
> > militarization of labour
> > > were no mere emergency measures ... the workers'
> > State normally had the
> > > right to coerce any citizen to perform any work at
> > any place of its
> > > choosing."
> > > And on the Workers' Opposition, Trotsky says "We
> > must bear in mind the
> > > historical mission of our Party ... to maintain
> > its dictatorship without
> > > stopping for these vacillations, nor even the
> > momentary falterings of the
> > > working class."
> > >
> > > Any one know where I could chase up sources for
> > these or similar remarks
> > by
> > > Trotsky, particularly relating to the
> > militarization of labor?
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Also, I heard someplace that Trotsky wrote on
> > literature? What's that
> > like?
> > > Did he write anything on music anywhere?
> > >
> > > The reason I ask is that I'm thinking of putting
> > together a slanderous
> > > character assassination pamphlet employing some
> > Situationist stuff against
> > > Trotsky and Trokskyist organizations, centering
> > mainly around how here in
> > > Chicago they played a big role in derailing the
> > post 9/11 antiwar movement
> > > and that the events they hold are almost
> > invariably boring dreary affairs
> > > with no rhythm or music (other than maybe a
> > martial or assembly line style
> > > march beat) and little smiling beyond sneers and
> > smug grins. The second is
> > > linked to the first above, in that the killed the
> > movement in part because
> > > they're so dull and predictable and depressing. I
> > want to do something I
> > > could take out of my pocket and handover as a
> > self-satisfied explanation
> > for
> > > why I don't want to buy their stupid papers or
> > come to their meetings.
> > >
> > > Any input, much appreciated.
> > >
> > > Nate
> > >
> > >
> >
>_________________________________________________________________
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> > >
> > >
> > >      --- from list
> > aut-op-sy-AT-lists.village.virginia.edu ---
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >      --- from list
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>
>====>"Revolution is not like cricket, not even one day cricket"
>
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