Date: Wed, 6 Nov 2002 10:19:41 +1100 (EST)
From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Richard=20Collins?= <richard_collins1-AT-yahoo.com.au>
Subject: Re: AUT: Trotsky--cohn-bendit


--0-686337190-1036538381=:42726


Hi Nate,
I understand your desperation, it is hard when like minded folks are small in number and un-like minded are large! 
In my experience the slag-sheet approach can not only be not effective in can be positively destructive for two reasons. First, I find it reinforces the sectarianism of the Leninists and closes them off to arguments from the Autonomist left about all manner of things from theory to demo tactics. The "anti-cap" movement has had a positive effect in this regard popularising a less hierachical style of organising and opening the way for this type of organising and politics to get a wider audience.
Secondly, I strongly believe that the movement is stronger when all sections, liberal, Leninist, non-Leninist, Green etc are engaged together. Sectarianism, wherever it comes from drives us apart.
Cheers,
Richard
 Nate Holdren <nateholdren-AT-hotmail.com> wrote:Hi Richard-
I think you and Peter are basically right that about the limited value of 
re-iterating the crimes of many many years ago. I'm in a similar position as 
you are of wanting to articulate arguments against these folks as strongly 
and as clearly as possible. Maybe my attaction to repeating the crimes of 
Trotsky etc stems from political desperation, I'm not sure. Maybe you'll 
write a particularly convincing and damning pamphlet someday that I can 
adapt for my own uses and I'll be able to rest more easily.

I still don't think it's utterly useless to have this sort of knowledge or 
to talk w/ people about the history of vanguardist groups. Friends and 
comrades who I've talked about this with who didn't know these parts of the 
history regularly find it quite interesting and it does deepen their 
distaste for these type of groups. It may be a not particularly effective 
method of opposing those folks, but it's the only one I really know how to 
employ at the moment.

If nothing else it provides more resources for driving off insistent 
vanguardist newspaper sellers at demonstrations. A friend and I have been 
trying to think about ways to mock those folks, maybe some types of 
performance or leaflets stealing their logos with text reading 'boring dull 
same old same old' etc, as a further means of undermining them at least a 
little bit.
We've not moved ahead on any of this yet, though, for a number of reasons, 
not least of which is not wanting to take any time away from other projects 
we're involved in.

best,
Nate

>From: Richard Collins 
>Reply-To: aut-op-sy-AT-lists.village.virginia.edu
>To: aut-op-sy-AT-lists.village.virginia.edu
>Subject: Re: AUT: Trotsky--cohn-bendit
>Date: Tue, 5 Nov 2002 10:44:52 +1100 (EST)
>
>
> Harald Beyer-Arnesen wrote:
>When all comes to all the material basis for apologies for
>Leninism is not politics, but that everyone knows some
>genuinely nice people who are members or followers of
>such groups. The problem being that this was always so.
>But then somehow, and each time, everything turned out
>so differently.
>
>This is precisely the point. I always reckon the best way to shift 
>someone's ideas is to hone in the contradictions of their ideas. If we keep 
>saying "Yeah but look at the attrocities the Bolsheviks committed, or look 
>at how things ended up" they keep saying "Yeah, that was because of the 
>material situation" and we get nowhere.
>What I think we should say is OK you look to Lenin for all the right 
>reasons, but this strategy will lead to the same end REGARDLESS of the 
>circumstances.
>My problem is I can't articulate this argument strongly enough, what I am 
>looking for is material that makes this argument in a modern context.
>Cheers,
>Richard
>
>
>
>---------------------------------
>Yahoo! Careers- 1,000's of jobs waiting online for you!


_________________________________________________________________
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---------------------------------
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--0-686337190-1036538381=:42726

HTML VERSION:

Hi Nate,

I understand your desperation, it is hard when like minded folks are small in number and un-like minded are large!

In my experience the slag-sheet approach can not only be not effective in can be positively destructive for two reasons. First, I find it reinforces the sectarianism of the Leninists and closes them off to arguments from the Autonomist left about all manner of things from theory to demo tactics. The "anti-cap" movement has had a positive effect in this regard popularising a less hierachical style of organising and opening the way for this type of organising and politics to get a wider audience.

Secondly, I strongly believe that the movement is stronger when all sections, liberal, Leninist, non-Leninist, Green etc are engaged together. Sectarianism, wherever it comes from drives us apart.

Cheers,

Richard

 Nate Holdren <nateholdren-AT-hotmail.com> wrote:

Hi Richard-
I think you and Peter are basically right that about the limited value of
re-iterating the crimes of many many years ago. I'm in a similar position as
you are of wanting to articulate arguments against these folks as strongly
and as clearly as possible. Maybe my attaction to repeating the crimes of
Trotsky etc stems from political desperation, I'm not sure. Maybe you'll
write a particularly convincing and damning pamphlet someday that I can
adapt for my own uses and I'll be able to rest more easily.

I still don't think it's utterly useless to have this sort of knowledge or
to talk w/ people about the history of vanguardist groups. Friends and
comrades who I've talked about this with who didn't know these parts of the
history regularly find it quite interesting and it does deepen their
distaste for these type of groups. It may be a not particularly effective
method of opposing those folks, but it's the only one I really know how to
employ at the moment.

If nothing else it provides more resources for driving off insistent
vanguardist newspaper sellers at demonstrations. A friend and I have been
trying to think about ways to mock those folks, maybe some types of
performance or leaflets stealing their logos with text reading 'boring dull
same old same old' etc, as a further means of undermining them at least a
little bit.
We've not moved ahead on any of this yet, though, for a number of reasons,
not least of which is not wanting to take any time away from other projects
we're involved in.

best,
Nate

>From: Richard Collins
>Reply-To: aut-op-sy-AT-lists.village.virginia.edu
>To: aut-op-sy-AT-lists.village.virginia.edu
>Subject: Re: AUT: Trotsky--cohn-bendit
>Date: Tue, 5 Nov 2002 10:44:52 +1100 (EST)
>
>
> Harald Beyer-Arnesen wrote:
>When all comes to all the material basis for apologies for
>Leninism is not politics, but that everyone knows some
>genuinely nice people who are members or followers of
>such groups. The problem being that this was always so.
>But then somehow, and each time, everything turned out
>so differently.
>
>This is precisely the point. I always reckon the best way to shift
>someone's ideas is to hone in the contradictions of their ideas. If we keep
>saying "Yeah but look at the attrocities the Bolsheviks committed, or look
>at how things ended up" they keep saying "Yeah, that was because of the
>material situation" and we get nowhere.
>What I think we should say is OK you look to Lenin for all the right
>reasons, but this strategy will lead to the same end REGARDLESS of the
>circumstances.
>My problem is I can't articulate this argument strongly enough, what I am
>looking for is material that makes this argument in a modern context.
>Cheers,
>Richard
>
>
>
>---------------------------------
>Yahoo! Careers- 1,000's of jobs waiting online for you!


_________________________________________________________________
Surf the Web without missing calls!Get MSN Broadband.
http://resourcecenter.msn.com/access/plans/freeactivation.asp



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