Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2003 01:54:03 +1100 (EST)
From: =?iso-8859-1?q?anthony=20hayes?= <antyphayes-AT-yahoo.com.au>
Subject: AUT: RE: Research towards an anti-militarist project


i spose i could class myself amongst rob's "ilk" at
times...

i'm not sure if "sectarianism" & "fatalism" are good
descriptions of the real concerns that rob has raised.
it has been argued that here in australia the greens
are running an argument along the lines that being
involved in bush's war makes all of us (read
"australians") targets. this is from what is perhaps
the largest "left" organisation in the anti-war
coalitions. real ideas that we face and argue against.
 i think it is good that millions are marching against
the war, and i've been involved in the movement here,
however i can't say that the sheer size of this
movement will, as a matter of course, lead to a
victory for our side. i'm reminded of the quick
military victory in 1991 that ended the anti-war
movement overnight. not that this is a repeat. tired.

anthony

 --- Adrian Wilding <adrianwilding-AT-blueyonder.co.uk>
wrote: > Hi Dave
> Glad to hear there is such a big response from your
> area going to
> London. My question to the guy Rob who you quote
> will probably open up a
> whole new - or old - can of worms (e.g. the popular
> front debate that
> happened a few months back). Yes, there seems to be
> an element in the
> popularity of the UK anti-war movement which is
> simply pro-nationalist,
> or at least pro-UK sovereignty: it merely doesn't
> want to see a UK
> government as the 'poodle' of Bush. There may also
> be a - much smaller -
> element which links on an unconscious level Iraq
> with asylum-seekers and
> wants no part of either. However, I think the size
> of this constituency
> could easily be over-estimated; I think in fact more
> people are now
> realising their affinity with 'old Europe'.
> It is also true - and banal - that much of the Stop
> the War Coalition
> and affiliated groups are not anti-capitalist, and
> have no class
> analysis (probably because they are themselves
> 'middle class'...) But on
> Saturday would Rob rather have a march of 50,000
> anti-capitalist
> anti-war protestors or 1 million anti-war
> protestors? I suspect most of
> us, whilst remaining critical and wanting to argue
> with those going for
> their various 'parochial' reasons, would go for the
> latter. And this
> because the main aims of this march seems to me 1)
> getting this war
> stopped (did we somehow forget this?) 2) showing the
> government that it
> is not supported by the people, 3) changing public
> opinion 4)
> galvanising anti-imperialist feelings, however
> diffuse and mis-directed.
> The third point is not unimportant, and doesn't
> always happen only on
> marches or through internet discussion lists. The
> many millions who
> watched the 2 hour debate last night on the BBC will
> have seen Jack
> Straw skinned alive and lucky to leave the
> auditorium in one piece, the
> overwhelming consensus coming out anti-war. That
> from a reactionary
> national broadcasting corporation. These things can
> have an effect. Even
> if not in stopping this current war, but in making
> sure no future
> government gambles its electability on a policy such
> as Blair's. Already
> here in Scotland we are seeing a dramatic drop in
> Labour support ahead
> of elections in April and a shift towards anti-war
> parties such as the
> Scottish Socialist Party and Green Party. With
> proportional
> representation, as exists here, these trends are not
> insignificant. In
> purely party politics terms, these are eventful
> times. Now, of course we
> must look beyond party politics, and that is why
> point 3) can be such an
> important after-effect of Saturday. I don't agree
> with one contributor
> that this sentiment will be soon forgotton. To Rob
> and his ilk I would
> say: less sectarianism and less fatalism, and lets
> see what we can
> achieve in the next few weeks.
> Adrian
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-aut-op-sy-AT-lists.village.virginia.edu
> [mailto:owner-aut-op-sy-AT-lists.village.virginia.edu]
> On Behalf Of Dave
> Graham
> Sent: 13 February 2003 08:43
> To: chris wright
> Cc: aut-op-sy
> Subject: Re: AUT: RE: Research towards an
> anti-militarist project
> 
> Dear all
> 
> Following the contribution from the OCAP member here
> is something from
> another list I belong that chimes in and will
> hopefully provoke more
> 'joined up thinking' along the same lines - actually
> this is the
> beginning
> of a 'composition' analysis that I thought Autopsy
> was supposed to be
> about
> [that was for Nate]
> 
>
_________________________________________________________
> 
> I think around 25 coaches are going to London for
> the Stop The War March
> from Nottingham area. Look's like it's going to be a
> big one. Me I'll be
> in
> Amsterdam. . . there's a big event organised there
> too!
> 
> ITMT [e-mail for in the meantime?] a thought.
> 
> There's two active campaign type groups in
> Nottingham at the moment: one
> is
> stopping the War,and the other is working around
> asylum/anti-deportation
> etc.
> 
> A majority of people oppose the war; nearly half
> even if there's a
> second
> security council resolution. A much bigger majority
> oppose asylum
> seekers
> [altho' slightly contradictorily not necessarily the
> principle of
> asylum].
> 
> Putting aside the organising 'cadre', within the
> Stop the War 'movement'
> is
> a large dose of parochialism: not a principled
> opposition to war / US/UK
> intervention but a fear of getting involved with
> anything East of
> Europe.
> 
> It would be perverse wouldn't it if the effect of
> StheW was to actually
> help further construct a popular Fortress Europe?
> 
> To clarify: this doesn't mean I'm not 101% in
> opposition.  
> 
> It might mean that darkness all around is getting to
> me.
> 
> Interested to know what people think.
> 
> Rob
> 
> 
> 
> 
> --
> Dave Graham
> <davgraham-AT-merseymail.com>
> 
>
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