Date: Sat, 05 Apr 2003 23:27:49 +0300
From: Ilan Shalif <gshalif-AT-netvision.net.il>
Subject: Re: AUT: AGAINST CONSERVATISM--FOR COMMUNISM


I wonder If people speak
the same language as me.

I claim that humans are bi-sexual and those who are
"heterosexuals" or "homosexuals" are deprived of some
of the potential for joy love and pleasure due to 
harsh capitalist upbringing.

I do not regard my heterosexuality as less deviant than the
homosexuality and other limitations.
 
Tom Messmer wrote:
> 
> Yeah, this whole thing is beyond the pale as far as I'm concerned. I
> could only resort to silliness, but I'm appalled at both Floyce and
> Ilan's take on homo stuff. I have a formal education in clinical mental
> health from a pretty conservative university, and even the crustiest of
> the crusty there wouldn't have spouted this reactionary blather.
>
What is reactionary in tracing the horible effects of capitalist 
upbringing on deprivation of people from inborn options we all have?
>
> Hello?
> Even liberals pay lip service to the concept of individual liberty,
> even the value of transgression...This seems almost like some
> antinomian freakout or something, I don't get it.
> 
> What sexuality has to do with autonomism is I think both personal and
> profoundly subversive, it involves the intersection of the individual's
> body and mind on one hand and the hold society does or does not have on
> them. Now, is "gay culture" automatically and at all times
> transgressive? Hell no, not one whit more than any other subculture,
> but the existence of this subculture most definitely exposes and
> undermines the hold capitalism has on people's minds and bodies(to an
> extent now, I'm not getting carried away). For starters, what is the
> implications for "reproduction", etc, etc. Of course, like every
> subculture it has been co-opted, but from an autonomist perspective,
> capitalism was FORCED to co-opt it, once again having to folow The
> majority of gay/les/bi/trans et al who are after all, working people,
> end of story.
> 
> As far as biology vs. upbringing, who cares? It would actually make me
> happier if it was a choice rather than some preprogrammed neurons
> firing but whatever, like everything else its prolly some from column A
> and some from column B.
> 
> And as a tatooed punk rock bisexual freaker I don't care a fiddlers
> fart about nature vs. nurture, I can do whatever and whoever I please,
> nyah!
> ;)
>
As one who was not deprived of his bisexual potentials you
You could do better than defame or not caring.
Ilan
 
> On Sat,  5 Apr 2003 19:11:39 +1000, topp8564-AT-mail.usyd.edu.au wrote:
> > On 4/4/2003 4:19 PM, "Ilan Shalif" <gshalif-AT-netvision.net.il> wrote:
> >
> >>  Homosexuality and other deviations in the sexual domain
> >>  are a deviation that is of entirely different domain.
> >>
> >>  It is of the same processes of "mental imprinting" like
> >>  these that cause the new born duckling to follow any thing
> >>  of the correct size and speed encountered in few hours
> >>  after it get out of the eeg.
> >>
> >>  The same process (though a bit milder) that cause people to
> >>  look for intimate partners who resemble the parent of the
> >>  opposite sex.
> >>
> >>  Even the reactionary establishment of mental health re-labled
> >>  the homosexuality as personality disturbance and no more
> >>  as illness.
> >
> >
> > *GASP*
> >
> > You cannot be serious - homosexuality isn't listed as a 'disturbance'
> > even in
> > the DSM, which IS orthodoxy. None of the anthropologists and
> > psychologists
> > that I know  believes this mental imprinting story - the hard core
> > positivist
> > explanation these days is that homosexuality, at last male
> > homosexuality, is
> > due to brain physiology. The case for that is looking stronger and stronger
> > every day, though I used to be highly sceptical of it. The other
> > theory, that
> > certain events in your childhood would make you into a queen has been
> > essentially booted out of the psychology establishment, or at least the
> > reputable part of it. I guess some people who have an axe to grind push the
> > idea that child abuse or overbearing mothers makes you gay, though
> > these ideas
> > have either not been tested credibly - what's an overbearing mother? -
> >  or have
> > been statistically mauled.
> >
> > I am surprised to hear these terms "dysfunction" and "disturbance" in this
> > context, specially in the present forum. Homosexuality is about as
> > dysfunctional as blond hair and light skin, and as disturbed as
> > liking peaches
> > rather than plums.
> >
> > At any rate, I'd like to know what this has to do with autonomism.
> >
> > Thiago
> >
> >
> > -------------------------------------------------
> > This mail sent through IMP: www-mail.usyd.edu.au
> >
> >
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> >
> 
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