From: "odessa steps" <italia-AT-gryphon33.fsnet.co.uk>
Subject: Re: AUT: AGAINST CONSERVATISM--FOR COMMUNISM
Date: Sun, 6 Apr 2003 10:46:30 +0100


Re queer culture and resistance, clearly some gay people are quite happy to
be gay, rich and capitalist and some gay people see there sexuality as a
means by which they are oppressed and fight it.  it isn't what you are or
even what you say that matters, its what you do.

I will fight alongside gay people who are fighting alongside me but totally
reject the idea that the fight against oppression is ethnically or sexually
determined.......
----- Original Message -----
From: "Nate Holdren" <nateholdren-AT-hotmail.com>
To: <aut-op-sy-AT-lists.village.virginia.edu>
Sent: Sunday, April 06, 2003 3:44 AM
Subject: Re: AUT: AGAINST CONSERVATISM--FOR COMMUNISM


> Thiago asked what this all has to do with autonomism, to which my
immediate
> response was nothing, that this is mostly wasted bandwidth (my own posts
> included) as I'm suspicious of the possibilities for success in (of maybe
> just totally uninterested in) conversations with homophobes.
> That said, Tahir and someone else, I forget who, did make points about
queer
> culture/lifestyle and subcultures as possible forms of resistance. I guess
> then the short answer to "what's this go to do with autonomism" (the short
> answer that's not a brush-off) would be something about the possible
> communist content of certain activities/relationships, depending on a
bunch
> of factors. Argh, way too abstract, sorry. Anyway, without getting into a
> general theory of everything, what do folks think about this idea? There's
a
> pretty good article on punk and autonomia on the net somewhere, I can
chase
> up the URL if anyone's interested. Has anyone seen anything else like
this?
> I think recently Multitudes carried stuff on ACT UP! - I'm not sure though
> as I don't read French.
>
> cheers,
> Nate
>
>
>
> No more weekdays, they hanged Monday, shot Thursday, sliced up Friday!
Every
> day is Sunday.
>
> -Franca Rame and Dario Fo, "Waking Up"
>
>
>
>
>
> >From: Michael Handelman <mhandelman1-AT-yahoo.com>
> >Reply-To: aut-op-sy-AT-lists.village.virginia.edu
> >To: aut-op-sy-AT-lists.village.virginia.edu
> >Subject: Re: AUT: AGAINST CONSERVATISM--FOR COMMUNISM
> >Date: Sat, 5 Apr 2003 15:36:58 -0800 (PST)
> >
> >Didn't the Kinsey Report on Human Sexual behavior,
> >show that there is no such thing as a "pure
> >homosexual" or a "pure heterosexual" rather, it's more
> >like a spectrumthere are some people who are more
> >inclined to heterosexual than homosexual, and some are
> >more homosexual than heterosexual, but it is a mixture
> >of homosexual AND heterosexual desire.
> >
> >
> >--- Tom Messmer <messmer-AT-endpage.com> wrote:
> > > Ilan,
> > > I'm sorry about my lumping you in with Floyce's
> > > silliness, but I was
> > > responding to this:
> > >
> > > >>>   Homosexuality and other deviations in the
> > > sexual domain
> > >   are a deviation that is of entirely different
> > > domain.
> > >
> > > "Deviation" is a value laden term, as in "filthy
> > > deviates", but not
> > > necessarily and apparently you didn't mean it that
> > > way.
> > >
> > >
> > >  >>> It is of the same processes of "mental
> > > imprinting" like
> > >   these that cause the new born duckling to follow
> > > any thing
> > >   of the correct size and speed encountered in few
> > > hours
> > >   after it get out of the eeg.
> > >
> > >   >>>The same process (though a bit milder) that
> > > cause people to
> > >   look for intimate partners who resemble the parent
> > > of the
> > >   opposite sex.
> > >
> > > I must admit I don't even understand what you mean
> > > here by "mental
> > > imprinting". There is some theoretical orientation
> > > that I am unfamiliar
> > > with at work here, would you mind elaborating some?
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >   >>>Even the reactionary establishment of mental
> > > health re-labled
> > >   the homosexuality as personality disturbance and
> > > no more as illness.
> > >
> > > The reactionary establishment does not label
> > > homosexuality as a
> > > personality disturbance any more and has not for
> > > some time, unless you
> > > mean some fundamentalist christian clinician
> > > somewhere?
> > >
> > > >>> I claim that humans are bi-sexual and those who
> > > are
> > > >>>"heterosexuals" or "homosexuals" are deprived of
> > > some
> > > >>> of the potential for joy love and pleasure due
> > > to
> > > >>> harsh capitalist upbringing.
> > >
> > > I would not necessarily agree that "humans are
> > > bi-sexual", this seems
> > > to be an essentialist position to me and therefore
> > > proscribing.  If
> > > someone prefers this or that, I say more power to
> > > 'em, what's messed up
> > > is that people don't tend to feel able to explore or
> > > ask themselves if
> > > there ARE options, this is the crux of the matter to
> > > me and like you I
> > > attribute this to the effects of Capitalist society.
> > >
> > >
> > > >>> I do not regard my heterosexuality as less
> > > deviant than the
> > > >>> homosexuality and other limitations.
> > >
> > > Again, I wouldnt define any sexual orientation
> > > necessarily as a
> > > limitation.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > >>> What is reactionary in tracing the horible
> > > effects of capitalist
> > > >>> upbringing on deprivation of people from inborn
> > > options we all have?
> > >
> > > I agree completely as long as we are talking about
> > > options. There is a
> > > subtle but important difference to me between saying
> > > "everybody is
> > > naturally bisexual" which I seriously doubt(though
> > > it would be nice :)
> > > ) and "everyone ought to feel free to explore their
> > > sexuality with a
> > > free, fun and open spirit."
> > >
> > > >>
> > > > As one who was not deprived of his bisexual
> > > potentials you
> > > > You could do better than defame or not caring.
> > > > Ilan
> > >
> > > If I defamed, I apologize.  As far as not caring, I
> > > obviously do care
> > > or I wouldnt be on here, I meant more that the
> > > "nature vs. nurture"
> > > argument is very tired, seems obvious to me that its
> > > a little of both
> > > and differs from person to person, culture to
> > > culture, etc.
> > >
> > > Tom
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >      --- from list
> > > aut-op-sy-AT-lists.village.virginia.edu ---
> >
> >
> >__________________________________________________
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> >
> >      --- from list aut-op-sy-AT-lists.village.virginia.edu ---
>
>
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