From: RRobincox-AT-aol.com
Date: Sat, 10 Apr 2004 05:01:17 EDT
Subject: AUT: The trotskyist transitonal programme - any thoughts?


Hi Folks

Ive posted the following exchange in the  MSN commuity, Socialist
Alliance (_http://groups.msn.com/SocialistAlliance/messages.msnw_ 
(http://groups.msn.com/SocialistAlliance/messages.msnw) )
Would appreciate any  feedback....

Regards

Robin
_____________

Hi  TrotskyistSP

In response to my point:

"OK so you push for a  minimum wage of let us say, £8 an hour and dont
get it. What then? How are  workers going to jump from wanting a
minimum wage of £8 ph which capitalism  wont permit to coming to the
conclusion that capitalism needs to be  overthrown??"

You say:

"They don't get it right, ok, so we then  urge them to fight for there
demands by striking, the bosses are gonna think  pretty hard about
giving into there demands when, lets say, 50% of his  workforce is
striking! No??"


I dont quite follow your logic here.  Are you saying the capitalists
will give into these demands just because the  workers are striking? I
dont think this is realistic. There is not a lot that  workers can do
on the industrial front; as Marx pointed out trade union  struggle is
inherently defensive. If it came to the crunch, the capitalists  with
the power of the state at their disposal will win. The Miners  strke
of 1984 bears this out. The most effective strike is one that  does
not have to happen i.e. is merely threatened. This will tend to  be
when economic conditions are good and the capitalists can afford  to
give some ground to the workers because they know they will  recoup
greater profits by recommencing production. In an economic  downturn,
workers are onto a losing wicket. If they stick out for a  polonged
strike they will almost certainly lose and lose heavily. As a  trade
unionist myself I would say that under these circumstances all  you
can do is make the best of a bad situation; hold out for  minimum
redundancies etc

But all this is besides the point. AAC stated  that the whole point of
Trotsky's transitional programme is to demonstrate  that capitalism
will NEVER provide workers with a decent standard of living.  It
therefore follows that no amount of striking under capitalism  will
succeed in that respect. In fact, the longer any strike goes on  the
more dire the economic position of individual srikers. All this  is
pretty self evident....

So if the transitional programme cannot  succeed ON ITS OWN TERMS I
then have to ask - what is the point of it? Does  it make workers
realise that capitalism cannot work to their advantage and  hence
start to revolutionise the working class? I seriously doubt this.  I
think it is complete wishful thinking.

I think endlessly pushing  demands which cannot be realised under
capitalism e.g. the £8 minimum wage  will sooner or later result in
massive demoralisation and disilluionment. The  workers will sooner or
later turn on those organisations making these demands  and come to
see them as cynical opportunists merely out to attract  support/votes.
Im sure these organisations such as the SP are very well  meaning but
they are victim of their own political strategies.

The  working class are not fools. They/we have a rough understanding
of what is  economically possible under capitalism. If you make
demands that are grossly  unrealistic in these terms, they/we will
soner or latter cotton on to the  fact that they are not going to get
any where with you and turn instead to  more "moderate" or realisable
demands. So the whole basis for a transitional  programme will be
undermined

But more devasting still for the theory  of the transitional programme
is this. In order for it to be a "transitional"  programme at all,
this presupposes something towards which this "transition"  is
leading. If we are talking about a communist/socialist society then  I
have to ask you how on earth you can have such a society without
workers  consciously understanding what such a society entails i.e. a
moneyless,  marketless, wageless society of free access to goods and
services and  volunteer labour.???

You can only become conscious of something by  talking about it and
thinking about it. But this is precisely what the  "transitional"
programe does not do; in fact is is quite explicit on this  point:
there is no point in trying promote a revolutionary  communist
consciousness among workers beause to quote Lenin it would take  500
years to do. Workers according to Lenin were only capable of a  trade
union consciousness.

I totally reject this elitist view of my  fellow workers. But this is
what the transitional programme is based upon. It  is based on the
assumption that workers will flock to the party making  these
unrealistic demands on capitalism who will then have enough  support
tio impose a communist society on the populace even if the  populace
lacks this communist consciousness. This is what the theory of  the
vanguard elite is all about. It is totally contrary to the  marxist
injunction that the emancipation of the working class MUST be  carried
out self consciously by the working class itself. In other words,  the
working class has to know what communism is about and support it;  you
cannot operate a communist society without this mass  understanding.
QED

So the transitional programme is not in fact a  transtional programme
at all; it is a dead end. It can never hope to  transcend capialism
but always operates within the parameters laid down by  the system. In
the end , it will result merely in a particular form of  capitalism -
state capitalism - which can never be in the interests of the  working
class

You also say

"How will they become disillusioned  when they are picketing the gates
to there workplace, letting there boss know  they won't give in? The
boss is not likely to sack 50% of his workers is  he?"

Its happened often enough hasnt it? In some industrial  conflict
situations the bosses have sacked 100% of the workforce , let  alone
50%. It is always possible to recruit new workers particularly in  an
economic recession when workers are in a very weak position. The
trade  union struggle is one that workers cannot possibly win. By its
very nature it  is defensive. This is the lesson of history we must
learn. We must transcend  mere trade union stryuggle and become
politically conscious as  well

Finally you say:

"Try reading our parties manifesto, and see  if you think our long
erm plans are  'Utopian'
www.socialistparty.org.uk/manifesto"

You misunderstand my  point. I am saying that trotskyist organisations
have traditionally argued  against promoting a communist/socialist
society in their literature and  propaganda activities because they
feel that the working is nor ready for it.  That is why they have
dismissed communist/socialist organisations that DO  explicitly
advocate a communist/socialist society in the above sense -  a
moneyless, stateless, wageless society - as being "utopian". The
irony  is that these trotskyists organisationS -I'm thinking
particualy of the SWP  here - are simply reinforcing capitalist
propaganda which likewise ridicules  talk of a communist society
as "utopian"

But unless workers want and  understand communism/socialism they NEVER
will be ready for  communism/socialism and you NEVER will have
communism/socialism - you will be  stuck with one or other variety of
capitalism

I have looked briefly at  the SP website and Im afraid to say that
unless I ave overlooked something,  I do not see any evidence at all
that you want to promote a  communist/socialist society. Yes, you talk
about communism/socialism but you  use these terms in the distorted
populist sense to mean simply  nationalisation or state capitalism;
you dont actually advocate the real  thing. And it is only by doing
that that you are ever going to make any  progress out of the quagmire
of  capitalism......

Regards
Robin
www.worldincommon.org
_http://groups.yahoo.com/group/WiCopendebate_ 
(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/WiCopendebate) 





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